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[00:00:00] Section: Teaser
[00:00:00] Kirigo Njenga: Everyone else that's really interested in upholding the human rights of women and girls and making sure that women and girls are protected is invited around this table to have this conversation.
[00:00:12] Section: Podcast introduction
[00:00:12] Anna Stoecklein: Hello, and welcome to a very special first of its kind episode of The Story of Woman. Coming to you in person from Kenya, this is a story about the strength and untapped potential of women. A story about what it looks like when one human rights issue that's been around for millennia faces the collective power of women who are determined to create better lives for themselves, their daughters, their communities, and the world.
The views expressed by the individuals interviewed in this podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of Orchid Project or its partner organizations
[00:00:49] Section: Episode
[00:00:49] Evelyn Wambui translating: She says she just hides behind her salon and does her advocacy from within, [00:01:00] challenging herself to be brave enough to just start advocacy outside the salon, face the family members and the community who are against this and talk to them and talk to the general community and together, let's all work to just start with this advocacy to stop the practice.
[00:01:16] Anna Stoecklein: Women having the space to come together and talk openly about their shared experiences has been a crucial component for every wave of the feminist movement throughout history.
Fariha, the survivor and activist from the Somali community we've met in previous episodes, has created an environment which does just that. She runs a salon and uses it not just as a place of business, but also advocacy, having conversations with the women in her community about their lived experiences with FGMC, enabling them to share their stories, learn that they are not alone in their experiences, and ultimately begin to come together to rewrite the story and their role in it.
[00:01:55] Evelyn Wambui translating: It's a very long journey and it will take a very long time, but she [00:02:00] believes that if women come together and talk about it and fight against it, then eventually the practice will come to an end.
[00:02:12] Anna Stoecklein: In the first two episodes of this series, we looked at what FGMC is and why, despite the law, despite the physical, psychological, and economic consequences, it persists. In this final episode, we'll explore what it will take not just to end the practice, but to shift the underlying social norms that drive it.
But before we get into that, what does progress even look like, and how long do we think it will take to get there?
Here's Sean, Head of Research and Capacity Strengthening at Orchid Project.
[00:02:46] Sean Callaghan: Bigger than FGM, progress means that women and girls are starting to be seen differently in society. I don't think what we want is an end to FGM, but a continuation of child marriage, [00:03:00] or a continuation of domestic violence or continuation of the subjugation of women. I think we want the transformation of society and that transformation is partly evidenced in the reduction of FGM, but it's also evidenced in the reduction of other things or the increase of other things.
And so an organization like Orchid, it is, at times it feels like we're spitting into the wind. At times it feels like, you know, there's that beautiful Swahili saying of pole pole, and I think that's it. You know, we have to take courage from the fact that we have changed some people's lives and it's going to take time. That we know, we know with any society and any societal change that change takes time. We're talking generations of change. We're not talking months of change.
[00:03:51] Anna Stoecklein: Polé, polé! My favorite Swahili saying, which means slowly, slowly. Ending a practice that's been [00:04:00] around since the pyramids and changing the underlying social norms that hold it in place will take time. We asked Kirigo, one of Orchid Project's advocacy officers, working closely with communities on the ground, where we are in terms of progress
[00:04:15] Kirigo Njenga: so we have made quite a lot of progress. We've seen communities change attitudes and social norms towards eradication of the practice. And we've also seen a decline in numbers in certain places. However, not as much as we'd have hoped for.
[00:04:31] Anna Stoecklein: There are a number of reasons for this.
[00:04:33] Kirigo Njenga: COVID took us back 10 years. One of the reasons was because a lot of girls found safe spaces within schools, and schools were closed and therefore they went back to their communities where the likelihood and the vulnerability of getting cut was high.
[00:04:46] Anna Stoecklein: She also mentioned conflict, the climate crisis, and a multitude of other overlapping issues.
[00:04:53] Kirigo: The fact that there's been areas where there's conflict, for example, the Sudan, whereby it's very hard to monitor where the girls are getting cut, and [00:05:00] therefore there's a higher likelihood and vulnerability for the girls in that space to be cut.
FGMC is not a standalone issues. We do not work on it in silos. It's an issue that has intersectionality with so many other issues from health to climate change to education to conflict and peace and security. And therefore we need to work on FGMC through the lens of intersectionality to ensure that the girls and women that we're trying to protect are able to not undergo the cut.
[00:05:28] Anna Stoecklein: Progress takes time because it doesn't happen in a silo, and there are these overlapping issues to contend with. And also because real, lasting change needs to go to the root.
[00:05:39] Kirigo Njenga: FGM is linked to deep rooted culturalpractices and beliefs. And I think that if communities really understood what FGM was and the consequences that come with it, then they would abandon the practice.
[00:05:53] Anna Stoecklein: Shifting awareness and understanding is crucial for changing a cultural practice, and not just within the practicing [00:06:00] communities themselves. Kirigo shared a good example of this
[00:06:04] Kirigo Njenga: The Kenyan bill to criminalize FGM was placed in parliament, but had a really difficult time passing. And one of the strategies that the women who introduced the bill used was to really educate their male counterparts and show them what happens when a girl or a woman undergoes FGM. And that was really a turning point for them. And they became very supportive. And that is how the bill passed with 100 percent acceptance by the whole house.
[00:06:31] Anna Stoecklein: The importance of awareness was certainly what we heard from the communities as well. COVAW the Coalition on Violence Against Women has been working with the Maasai community for over a decade, spreading awareness of the issue and empowering community members to become advocates and spread the awareness further.
This was mentioned by just about every member of the Maasai group we spoke with.
[00:06:54] Evelyn Wambui translating: I like what she said that at [00:07:00] least when COVAW came, they helped people see why FGM is bad. So they sort of received support and people are able to listen because it was coming from someone else.
So she did not know much about it. She only came to know a bit about it when she went to school, and then a bit more when COVAW came and started doing community awareness. So that's when she really heard about it.
And then it helps that there are some organizations such as COVAW that really help and have empowered women to speak up and speak their mind.
But the thing that helped is that a lot of the teachers in the school have also gone through training from COVAW.
It is because even in churches we are [00:08:00] going to the schools, they are being told that. So, so many companies or many people now are spreading the gospel.
[00:08:12] Anna Stoecklein: Spreading awareness. Spreading the gospel. This is even true for Pauline, the woman who used to be a cutter.
[00:08:20] Evelyn Wambui translating: She needed income generation to take care of her 12 children. So that's why she was a cutter. But then COVAW team came and with their awareness, she was able to understand that this is not a good thing.
[00:08:34] Anna Stoecklein: In the Somali community, where prevalence isn't going down as fast as it is in the Maasai community, we didn't hear as much about the direct correlation between awareness spreading and the practice slowing down.
But we did hear from some community members about the importance of awareness. This is Leila, a Somali survivor we met in previous [00:09:00]
[00:09:00] Evelyn Wambui translating: What does she think it will take to stop FGM? It's just community awareness, just going. to the grassroots where it happens because they know the specific places where FGM happens. Just going there, going to the madrasas, going to the schools, going to the marketplaces where the women do business and just talking to the women about the positives and negatives of FGM because there's a lot of, there's the lack of awareness. So just making sure that there's awareness around that in all the spaces where FGM works and for the women.
[00:09:34] Anna Stoecklein: Awareness is important, but just because a message is delivered doesn't mean it's received or will translate into a change of heart and mind. Fariha sees this first hand in her salon.
[00:09:49] Evelyn Wambui translating: So, in her spa and in her salon, some people come to get massages and it's during that time when they open up and talk about their challenges. Some of them, she's able to talk to them, And they agree and they say, [00:10:00] okay, I will go to the grandmother or I will go to the father and talk to them against having their daughter's cut.
But some are adamant that, you know, this is a safety precaution and they need to keep their girls safe. And she's saying case in point, just yesterday, there was someone who came to her salon and after they had conversations, she said, the girls are, like they've gotten to a point where they're exposed to TikToks and social media and they want to do things, and she's telling them not to do them, but they're like, you know, they've gotten to that point where they, they are alive.
And she said, now, the next thing to do is just to take them to the cut so that they can just sort of like calm down and not be as energetic. So in her opinion, they need to go through the cut for them to stop being as active. And she's doing this to protect them, in her opinion. So for people like that, it's difficult for her to be able to get through to them, because they already have that mentality in their head that, [00:11:00] you know, for these girls to be safe and protected because of their active nature, then they need to go through the cut.
Even with her daughter, who is now turning 12, she also does things and when she asks her, she says, Oh, mom, I know my rights. So girls have gotten to that point. But for some women who decide that cutting is the solution, it's difficult for her to get through to them.
[00:11:22] Anna Stoecklein: So, like education or the law, spreading awareness isn't a silver bullet, and it's important to understand what we even mean by spreading awareness. Here's Sean again.
[00:11:34] Sean Callaghan: So awareness is a sort of a catchphrase, but awareness of what and in what way in order to do what. There's a framework that gets used in behavioral change theory that knowledge leads to a attitude change, which leads to a practice change.
But what we're seeing in the data is that there's not a straight line between those. That just because you know that smoking is not good for you doesn't mean you stop [00:12:00] smoking. There's something else going on in the middle.
Well, some of the what's going on in the middle is smoking's cool, so you, you just want to keep doing it. But something else is going on in the middle that you're addicted. So there's a whole bunch going on there that it doesn't really matter what photograph of a cancerous lung on the pack of cigarettes, that knowledge doesn't translate into a change in practice necessarily.
[00:12:20] Anna Stoecklein: Or as Kirigo puts it.
[00:12:22] Kirigo Njenga: Because awareness can be, I tell you something and you're aware of it. That doesn't necessarily mean that my behavior changes by virtue of the fact that I am aware of it.
[00:12:31] Sean Callaghan: Simply saying how do we raise awareness doesn't change communities. It's awareness of what? And then what comes after awareness that there has to be this, if we're saying that in many communities, FGM is held in place by the social norm, then we have to shift the norm.
And that's a collective decision, not an individual decision. I can decide to violate the norm and suffer the consequences of [00:13:00] that. And certainly some people do, but if I really want to change the community, then we need to think about how does that awareness become something that we're agreeing, rather than I'm agreeing, to shift something.
[00:13:21] Anna Stoecklein: What's the most effective way of spreading individual awareness while also shifting collective awareness and eventually shifting an entire cultural norm?
[00:13:32] Sean Callaghan: Nothing is the silver bullet. Nothing is one size fits all. But the process, rather than the product, the process that seems to have the best impact on shifting the culture is to create dialogue inside the community.
So those of us that come outside of the community and are working with the community, our role is not to inform, our role is not to [00:14:00] demand, our role is not to, but our role is to facilitate, to create the space where that dialogue can take place.
[00:14:08] Anna Stoecklein: Anne, the sole female elder from the Maasai community knows very well about the importance of community dialogue.
[00:14:21] Evelyn Wambui translating: If we all come together and really talk about the impact or the hazards of FGM consistently, without ceasing, then we can all help to end the practice. And if communities are able to come together, put cutters together, speak to them, put girls together, create awareness among them, among different people in the community, then together, sort of like the noise will be loud enough for this message to be heard.
[00:14:53] Sean Callaghan: If we think about the social norm is held in place by what [00:15:00] I think others think I should do. What are others doing? What do others expect? And what are the sanctions if I don't conform? You know, that, that's really social norms.
So, I've got to unpack what do I think others think I should do and what do they think I think they should do. You know, we've got to, the only way to unpack that is to have an honest conversation and say, Oh no, no, no, I didn't want you to do that. Oh, no, no. Oh, well in that case, maybe we shouldn't, you know, I actually want to change. You want to change, but we both thought we shouldn't change because we thought you didn't want, you know.
So that honest conversation is really the key to unlocking this idea of, Oh yeah, let's change. I think any community that practices FGM love their kids, and this is the best thing for my kids to secure their future. Well, but it's also harming my kids, and if I get into that dialogue around the [00:16:00] benefits versus the consequences of this, maybe there's another way to love my kids. But that can only happen within the community.
[00:16:09] Anna Stoecklein: We asked what they found works best for creating this community dialogue.
[00:16:13] Sean Callaghan: The research shows that creating intergenerational dialogue really works. Taking a cultural assets approach rather than a cultural problem approach. So we're not saying your culture is the problem, how do you change it? Rather saying your culture is the valuable thing, how do you leverage that?
So for example, in a culture that has this incredible value of the value of older people, some would say that's a problem because it's these old people that are making us do this thing. But can we turn that on its head and say they have, can we get into dialogue with them and, and then leverage that power of grannies?
[00:16:56] Anna Stoecklein: And what happens when we leverage the power of grannies? What [00:17:00] does intergenerational dialogue look like?
[00:17:02] Sean Callaghan: To be able to have grannies sit with mothers, sit with daughters, sit with granddaughters to say, let's talk about life. Let's talk about how things have been different for you than for me and how that in some cases is better, and in other cases I feel the loss.
I feel the loss of how my mother used to be respected, and you don't seem to respect me. But I see the incredible gain of the fact that I grew up illiterate, but you've grown up with a university degree, and I see the power of that. And to have that bigger conversation about how culture and society is shifting.
And then within this context of that to say, and where a woman's place within society is shifting, and then within the context of that to say, and where does FGM fit in that? So it's be able to create that bigger [00:18:00] dialogue, that's where we really see, and that dialogue doesn't happen in a weekend, that dialogue happens over months and years.
And it's not about I'm making an announcement next Tuesday that we're going to stop. It's about, we've found this new way to be. We're still us, but we've found a new way to be us. And that has to come from within, it can't be imposed.
[00:18:23] Anna Stoecklein: Sean talked about how solutions imposed from the outside fundamentally don't work. And the same goes for conversation.
[00:18:30] Sean Callaghan: I think it's really important that the conversation happens from within the community, by the community, for the community, to the community, because the community understands all of those nuances. It's kind of like, well, duh. Uh, we, you know, whereas for the rest of us, we're kind of looking at it from the outside going, we're trying to understand.
And so as we are looking to build awareness, as we're looking to build movements towards change, that change is going to come from within the community. And it's about how we build the capacity of the community. And [00:19:00] support the capacity of the community to really accelerate that change. That's really the key that those of us that come from communities outside of the practicing community.
[00:19:09] Anna Stoecklein: So there's a balance. Communities need and want to support from organizations such as Orchid Project, COVAW, and the Brighter Society Initiative. But the conversations and solutions have to come from within. Here's Kirigo.
[00:19:25] Kirigo Njenga: NGOs really being very cognizant that you're going into someone's territory. It's like someone coming into your house and trying to tell you how to clean your house. You know what I mean?
So that is, you know, It's something that as NGOs we really need to always have at the forefront of our minds as we interact with communities and allowing them to really be part and parcel of those conversations and those solutions for the things that we are trying to change.
[00:19:52] Anna Stoecklein: Just as important as implementing the right approach is deciding how long an organization should be on the ground within these communities.
[00:19:59] Sean Callaghan: [00:20:00] I often think about it as, if you think about a rocket launching a satellite into orbit, there are two things that you need in order to get a satellite into sustained orbit. You need an appropriate amount of thrust for an appropriate amount of time. Anything short of that wastes everything you've done. You've lifted that satellite up to almost orbit, but then, okay, we got tired. We've moved on. We've run out of funding. We've gone to another community. Everything that we've done crashes back to Earth.
If we stay around too much longer after that, you know, we're going off to Mars instead of into sustained orbit. And so we very seldom overshoot. We almost always undershoot. But where we overshoot, we create a dependency that then actually doesn't help the sustained either.
[00:20:51] Anna Stoecklein: We heard over and over again from the members of both the Maasai and Somali communities about the importance of these NGOs. And just as often, we heard [00:21:00] about the need to ensure the NGOs and these community dialogues happen at the grassroots level.
[00:21:12] Evelyn Wambui translating: So she says her request is for organizations that are actively championing against FGM to not just stay in their towns. To go to the rural areas where this is actually happening. They need to go to the grassroots, to talk to the communities.
[00:21:28] Anna Stoecklein: The people we spoke with also talked about another key component for these conversations.
[00:21:48] Evelyn Wambui translating: She's grateful for all the support that they've received as a community and she's urging organizations not to let them go, not to let go of their hand, and to support them [00:22:00] especially in creating awareness for the men in the community.
And most important, they need to involve the men, because women have rights, yes, but they don't have decision making power.
[00:22:24] Kirigo: So men and boys have a huge role to play. They play a really key role because we live in a patriarchal society and therefore, we are happy that there are organizations that are working and empowering boys and men to be champions against FGMC and also speak out against the practice and we definitely need more of their voices.
[00:22:45] Sean Callaghan: Men have a role, but a big part of men's role is to just get out of the way and create the space for women to drive the change.
[00:22:56] Anna Stoecklein: We need more of men's voices, and we need more [00:23:00] men to get out of the way. That might sound a bit contradictory, but ultimately what it comes down to is power. And, as a man, using whatever power you have to help break down and restructure the current system.
[00:23:16] Sean Callaghan: If you pull it right out to the sort of macro level, is FGM an indicator of a patriarchal culture? Probably yes. So in that sense the patriarchal structure and therefore the power of men is somewhere behind all of this.
Which is why we talk about a gender transformative approach to ending FGM, because that gender transformative approach is challenging those gender norms that are in place, and therefore challenging the patriarchal structures that are in place.
So, you know, in pretty much any society in the world, men hold power. We are often in places of decision making. We often [00:24:00] have decision making over resources and access to resources. And so how we become advocates for gender transformation, how we become advocates for change, how we give our power away and cede our power and disempower ourselves in order that others may take up space.
[00:24:20] Anna Stoecklein: Sometimes that means speaking up, sometimes that means handing someone else the microphone, sometimes that means something else entirely.
[00:24:31] Sean Callaghan: Coming closer in, there would be communities where men would say, we would never marry an uncut girl. So therefore, if men changed their view on that and would be prepared to marry an uncut girl, then that would start to potentially shift the norm.
[00:24:49] Anna Stoecklein: Like Saitoti, who did just that.
[00:25:00] Saitoti, who we met in the previous episodes, is a 27 year old Moran from the Maasai community.
[00:25:06] Evelyn Wambui translating: A Moran is like an age set, and Morans in that age set, that's where they move from being boys to being men. So a lot of cultural training and awareness is done during that time for them to be able to move from being boys to, to men.
And so during that time, that's when they call themselves the Moran. It's the title of their age set.
[00:25:31] Anna Stoecklein: Saitoti wanted to use his power to lead by example.
[00:25:35] Evelyn Wambui translating: He's one of the few Morans who made the decision to marry women who have not been cut because they saw it important to walk the talk and they go into communities and tell them, if we did it, you can also do it.
[00:25:52] Anna Stoecklein: He also uses his power to speak out publicly. He's been doing this for years. And when he received backlash, [00:26:00] when people refused to listen to him, he found another way.
[00:26:04] Evelyn Wambui translating: Initially, they were calling people in forums and they'd get the numbers were very few, very few people would come and listen to them. So they decided to go into the marketplace on the market day, and they would use songs and it attracted a lot of people to come.
And then when people would come, then they'd use that forum to advocate and talk about why it's important for them that girls don't go through the cut. And so with time, people have been coming to their forums and people have been embracing them because initially they were not even being allowed to go into such spaces if their wives are uncut.
But now people are more open to receiving them and to having them with them. And even those who are against it, because there are not as many, there are few, than they, they're afraid of talking against it because a lot of the people have already embraced it.
I'm asking him if, if he can [00:27:00] sing some of one of the songs that he sings.
It's a beautiful song that just says, why do we want to stay with the past? Why don't we listen and give girls and women a chance? Let's listen. Why is this practice not something that they prefer and what can we do to help them because, you know, they want to go to school, they want to do other things outside [00:28:00] of this practice and what follows after.
So let's give girls a chance. Let's give them a platform. Let's listen to them and hear what their concerns are as a community. So let's leave the past to the past and let's embrace a better future for our girls and women.
[00:28:17] Anna Stoecklein: Another song Saitoti sings is about how other Maasai cultural practices have faded out over time. This is a great reminder that even when we're talking about issues as far reaching and long lasting as FGMC, culture does, in fact, change. It always has, and it always will.
[00:28:36] Evelyn Wambui translating: He looked back in making his decision and said there are so many other cultures that were associated with him becoming a Moran that have faded.
For example, they needed to kill a certain number of birds, skin them, and put them on top of their heads for them to qualify to be Morans. And that practice has [00:29:00] over time died. So his question has always been, if there are other practices that over time have faded and we are still getting through different age sets, why is it that we cannot stop FGM as a practice and still allow our women to move from being girls to women?
So there's, there's a song that's usually sung around if other practices have been abandoned with time, why can't we abandon FGM as a practice, as a community?
[00:29:32] Kirigo: We love hearing examples about men using their power like this. But of course, it's not just about men participating, it's about every single one of us. Here's Kirigo.it has to be a collective practice. We have to create a movement that advocates against the practice. We need collective efforts. We need collaborations from government, civil society, and all other stakeholders, all of us have to be involved in the advocacy towards the practice.
[00:29:59] Anna Stoecklein: While [00:30:00] change takes time, progress is happening. And organizations like Orchid Project are driving this momentum forward.
[00:30:07] Kirigo Njenga: We haven't ended the practice, but we are on our way. We have worked with 90 organizations in 25 countries across Africa and Asia, and we have seen many progresses.
For example, the national prevalence rate in Kenya has declined from 21% to 15% in less than 10 years. In Asia, in 2024, the Indonesian government introduced a legal provision criminalizing FGMC. We are seeing progress. We still have more progress to go, but we are on our way.
[00:30:39] Anna Stoecklein: There is no one size fits all solution. FGMC is a complex, highly varied, and nuanced issue that impacts every community and every girl differently.
Ending it will require a shift in the culture. A shift in the social norms. A big part of that process is raising awareness, [00:31:00] but it has to be the right kind of awareness delivered by the right kind of messenger. This shift must be supported by NGOs, the law, the government, the education and health care systems, and all the other players involved.
But it must be led by survivors and by those living within the communities. And whether we're talking about gaining our voting rights, regaining our abortion rights, or ending FGMC, real lasting change takes time.
[00:31:31] Sean Callaghan: You know, you look back at Kenya in the US, in the UK, anywhere, you look back and you say. How was life for your grandmother? How was life for your mother? How is life for you? How is life for your child, your daughter? How is life for your granddaughter? That five generation shift.
You know, you go back to the UK, my grandmother didn't have the right to vote. My daughter, you [00:32:00] know, is an empowered woman. You know, I mean, the shift is massive even in the UK, but that took 50 years, 60 years, 70 years, a hundred years.
And I think that we need to see that our cultures are dynamic, our faiths are dynamic, and they are shifting. And the Maasai community, the Somali community, the cultures are shifting, but the shift doesn't happen with a program for two weeks or a program for three years. The shift happens over 50 years.
The real hope for me is as we transform society, as we slowly, slowly shift the narrative that my daughter, and my generation's daughters will have life different and my granddaughters will have life significantly different to my mother and my grandmother.
[00:32:55] Anna Stoecklein: [00:33:00] A young Masai man goes around his village singing songs about changing his cultural traditions to ensure that the women in his community are not left behind.
A woman who once made her living as a cutter now goes from house to house speaking out against the practice and sharing her story.
An FGMC survivor has taken her advocacy to her salon, creating a space for women to come together, speak freely and begin to change their worlds from within.
There is no one size fits all solution. It will take time, but change will come. It already has.
[00:33:38] Kirigo Njenga: What keeps me hopeful? Seeing the fight of the people that have gone ahead of me and seeing the progress that's been happening. All those women, men, boys, girls, such a vibrant youth that are behind me have the same fight, And I would hope that as they carry the mantle, they really are the last [00:34:00] generation to do this.
[00:34:00] Anna Stoecklein: In the meantime, keep speaking out when it's needed, creating space when it's not, and dreaming of a better future for the next generation.
[00:34:11] Christine: My dreams for my daughter that she become a better person in life. That I am not preparing anymore to do FGM to her. I will try all my best. That she get full education up to university level. That when she becomes a big person, she can stand for herself.
[00:34:33] Anna Stoecklein: Just like her mom.
[00:34:34] Evelyn Wambui translating: Just like her mom. Thank you so much. This was amazing. Yes.
Thank you. So good. Wow, so [00:35:00] much.
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