REPLAY: S2 E1. Woman and Change: Setting the Scene with Hillary Clinton and Cherie Blair

[00:00:00] It's a mixed story and we can't ever deny the progress because we have to keep building on it, we have to keep lifting it up, we have to make sure that people know it's possible, but we have to go at that with our eyes wide open.

[00:00:12] I am very convinced about the strength of women and their power and a lot of this is about the fear if you like of the power of women and therefore I think it's really important that women take back their power.

[00:00:29] Hello and welcome to season two of The Story of Woman. In today's world, it can feel like change is happening but only in the wrong direction. While we agree there's still a lot of work to do, we're reframing that story.

[00:00:45] I'm your host Anna Stoecklein and each episode of this season I'll be exploring how women make change happen from those at the top helping to drive it. We'll look at where we are in this long march to equality,

[00:00:58] what lies ahead and how important you are in the fight. This isn't a story of a world that's doomed to oppress women forever. This is a story of an opportunity to grow stronger than ever before. Exactly as woman kind has always done. Hello friends welcome welcome.

[00:01:19] Just a quick note to say that this is a replay episode of a previous episode with Hillary, Clinton and Cherie Blair. This was the first episode of the second season of the podcast which was all about change and how women make it happen.

[00:01:36] I just wanted to take a minute and first of all say welcome to any new listeners and invite you to have a listen to this episode and then work your way back up through the rest of the season which has featured some more brilliant women like Reshma Sejani,

[00:01:51] the founder of Girls Who Code and Mom's First, Alicia Garza, a co-creator of the Black Lives Matter movement, Zarifah Ghaffari, Afghanistan's youngest ever female mayor and about a dozen more. And feel free to then go back even further to season one where I spoke with authors of

[00:02:11] non-fiction books whose work centers around women and gender. So we explored everything from the economy to healthcare, the way we design our city streets and we even looked at the authority gap which impacts all of these spaces.

[00:02:27] You know, the one where we all believe men are assertive and women are aggressive. It's so pervasive you'll even hear Hillary and Cherie talk about this very gap today. Since this episode first came out I've heard from so many of you about what it meant to you,

[00:02:46] what you learned and importantly what you plan to do about some of these issues that we discuss. Thank you so much for reaching out. It always means so much to hear from you all and I'd love to keep hearing from you so please keep it coming.

[00:03:02] And of course please feel free to share far and wide so we can get even more people listening to this important story. Alright here's a replay of the first episode of the Changemaker series with Hillary Clinton and Cherie Blair.

[00:03:20] Hello hello hello welcome back or if you're new here welcome. I am so happy you're here and you've picked a really great episode to start because today I speak with Hillary, Rodham Clinton and Cherie Blair. I know, I can't believe it either.

[00:03:40] Even though Hillary and Cherie are longtime friends this was actually the first joint podcast interview they had ever done which is yeah pretty cool. That's pretty cool and unlike most of

[00:03:53] my interviews we got to do this one in person. I'm going to resist going on a tangent about what it was like to be in the room with these historic figures because I want to get

[00:04:03] into our conversation but let me just say especially to the Americans out there not to bring up any old wounds but Hillary Clinton would have been the best president America has ever seen

[00:04:16] and that's a fact that I'm just going to throw out there and leave, leave out there. For now we'll circle back but if you're listening to this do have a watch of our

[00:04:28] conversation as well it's on YouTube and on the website so you can watch us live and in person. So this is the first episode of a wider series that explores all things change and change makers, the people behind it and my conversation with Hillary and Cherie really

[00:04:44] sets the scene for all of this. Both of these women have not just lived through but have helped to lead multiple waves of feminism so they know a thing or two about driving change.

[00:04:55] So of course I was keen to have them help us understand how exactly real and lasting change happens but I also wanted to have them help us make sense of the current moment that we're in

[00:05:06] right now this moment of both immense pushback and progress. So we talk a lot about that and about where we are and how to keep building on that momentum and we also talk a lot about

[00:05:17] the foundation that Cherie started, the Cherie Blair Foundation for Women and all the important work that they're doing putting power back into the hands of women and women entrepreneurs

[00:05:28] around the world which as it turns out is one of the best ways that we can drive change and keep building on this momentum. And while there's so much evidence supporting the importance of putting

[00:05:40] power back into the hands of women, we also get into the many barriers that hold women back from this power like the deeply ingrained but widely pervasive stereotypes that we have about

[00:05:52] women. You know the ones, he's assertive yeah we like that but she's a little too aggressive for me yeah I think she's coming off a bit aggressive and get ready because we actually hear Hilary

[00:06:06] role play this exact scenario and if there's anybody in the world that knows what it's like to be stereotyped with a gendered adjective it's Hilary Clinton which brings me to the

[00:06:18] last key point we discussed today. What is it like to be them, to be female leaders at the top in this male dominated world and public figures in a culture that terrorizes women who dare speak their mind?

[00:06:34] So yeah we get a little personal and while these ladies don't need an introduction I'm going to give one anyway because we should never stop talking about women's accomplishments and these women have many. Hilary Clinton has served as Secretary of State, Senator from New York,

[00:06:52] First Lady of the United States, First Lady of Arkansas, a practicing lawyer and law professor and activist. Hilary also founded Onward Together an organization that works to advance progressive values by encouraging people to organize get involved and run for office. She's held a lot

[00:07:09] of first titles which are incredible but especially when you look at them all collectively so she was one of just 27 women out of 235 students in her Yale law school. She then became the first

[00:07:22] woman partner at the oldest law firm in Arkansas. She was the first woman to chair the National Board of the Legal Services Corporation. She was the first person who declared on the world stage that human rights are women's rights and women's rights are human rights. What a revolutionary

[00:07:41] thought. She was the first First Lady ever to be elected to public office, first woman senator from New York and of course she was the first female nominee of a major U.S. political party and she

[00:07:55] went on in this election to win the national popular vote by nearly three million votes. Let us never forget that fact and hers was the first campaign in history of which the majority of donors were women. I love that. And Cherie Blair is a leading international human rights

[00:08:16] lawyer, writer, philanthropist and committed campaigner for women's rights. She is a leading Kings Council and was awarded a CBE in 2013 for her services to women's issues. Americans, just so you know, CBE and Kings Council these are both basically the highest ranking awards

[00:08:36] you can get that are given out by His Majesty the King himself. So just know they are incredibly big deals. Cherie was a founding member of Matrix Chambers which was formed in 2000 and specializes

[00:08:50] in human rights law and she's the founder and chair of Omnia Strategy Law Firm. In 2008, she established the award-winning Cherie Blair Foundation for Women which is so far supported over 200,000 women across more than 100 countries. And she was the first wife of a British prime minister

[00:09:08] who had her own full-time career. So clearly these women are pioneers of many things, politics, law, business but also social roles. They pioneered a brand new type of female public figure. As you'll hear them talk about shortly they were a part of this first generation of

[00:09:28] professional women with husbands in charge of governments. But of course like all the women that came before them they were still expected to look a certain pretty way to stay quiet and to play

[00:09:40] the supportive wife role. They didn't, I mean they were supportive but they refused to give up their own identities in spite of all the pushback and vitriol they received to put it incredibly

[00:09:54] lightly. They both kept their careers and went down paths that looked really different than what was expected of them in these roles. And in doing so they made it easier for the rest of us to do the

[00:10:04] same. And that's essentially how change happens, you know there's the accomplishment itself so Hillary and Cherie refusing to give up their identities then there's the example that it sets we all see this and we start to refuse to give up our own identities and then there's

[00:10:21] the shift in societal norms that happens. People start to get comfortable with and then begin to expect women to keep their own personal identities their entire life. Again what a revolutionary thought. So that's why change really does happen every time a woman steps outside of her box and

[00:10:43] creates a little puncture in whatever ceiling is looming above her. And you know it happens when someone blazes the trail which makes the trail bigger and harder for society to ignore or deny.

[00:10:59] So America may not have been ready for a female president five years ago but Hillary has normalized seeing a woman's name on the ballot which has created more space for all of us to follow in

[00:11:11] her footsteps. So let's do it! Let's join a trail or blaze our own and keep changing the world exactly as woman kind has done since the beginning of our subjugation. All right that's enough from me please enjoy this incredible conversation with

[00:11:31] Hillary Radham Clinton and Cherie Blair. Well it is the absolute honor of a lifetime to be sat here with two of some of the most historic and important women of our time Cherie Blair CBE KC

[00:11:52] and Secretary Hillary Radham Clinton. Welcome and thank you so much for being here today. Oh it's our pleasure we're going to have a lot of fun now. We love getting together

[00:12:02] for any occasion so this was a terrific idea. Wonderful I'm all for it so I won't waste precious minutes of our time by asking you to introduce yourselves to us or reading out your bio but what

[00:12:14] I would love is for you to introduce your relationship to us. I'd be curious to hear how you met, how long you've known each other but also what types of roles have you played

[00:12:25] in each other's lives and what has that really meant to you over all these years? I suppose we met through politics. We did through our husbands. Yes and through our husbands

[00:12:34] that's terrible cliches isn't it? But I think that that is how in the 90s. In the 90s probably when you were first lady. Right mid 90s yeah and my husband had just become leader of the opposition.

[00:12:47] I know it's one of those memories where I met Tony right after he became leader of the opposition he came to Washington and we had mutual friends who had a reception for him and one of the very

[00:13:02] first things he said to me was oh you have to meet my wife Shuri. You and she have so much in common and it was not long after that that Bill and I were in London and we did get to meet

[00:13:18] and then they would come to Washington and we would get to spend time together but we did have a lot in common. She's actually a practicing lawyer I'm a recovering lawyer but

[00:13:30] you never really recover you do it. It's a lifelong effort but we both really respect the law and believe it can be an instrument for justice and relieving oppression and certainly in Shuri's

[00:13:45] case taking on human rights abuses so there was always so much to talk about and not just you know political what's happening in the US or the UK but you know all of the personal and family

[00:13:59] and frankly trading stories about what it was like to be in the spotlight as a woman married to a president or married to a prime minister and all that came with that because it is not easy. I

[00:14:15] don't know that it ever was but it's more difficult in today's hyper information ecosystem than ever before. I always think that people don't realize quite, in fact they realize quite what it's like

[00:14:28] they would never volunteer for it. You always think when it can't be that difficult and by the time you realize it really is that difficult it's too late. It is. But I remember shortly

[00:14:37] after we came to Washington and you took me around you showed me all the things that you were doing to give you some ideas about what we might be able to do because you suddenly are in a

[00:14:48] position not of power but a position of influence and you know what do you want to do with that? How can you try and make a contribution without meddling in things that you you know the

[00:15:01] political things which you should only meddle in if you're actually an elected politician? Or asked. Or asked, well or asked of course. But you gave me a lot of good advice about that.

[00:15:11] We were in if not the first certainly close to the first generation of professional women whose husbands ended up you know in charge of governments and up until then there had been a kind of

[00:15:28] expectation that there was a role to be filled and it was largely to be seen but not heard and not to do anything independently. And I remember I was very impressed how you

[00:15:43] really were determined to keep doing what you'd spend a lifetime preparing to do which was to represent clients stand up and speak out and it was really brave. Shari, very difficult but brave.

[00:15:58] Well the thing about it was I always thought and when I went into Downing Street there had been always this assumption as you say seen and not heard. Later on I spoke to Mary Wilson

[00:16:09] whose husband Harold Wilson had been Prime Minister in the 60s and 70s and she said at some points I used to think why don't you just get a cardboard cut out of me and just stick it

[00:16:18] in the corner you know because that's she felt so frustrated that that was literally what was expected of her. I was very conscious that however typical that might have been in the past

[00:16:30] in 1997 a vast majority of British women actually did work even when they had families and children because they for various reasons they both wanted to and also often had to. Right. And therefore this

[00:16:43] idea that the wife of the Prime Minister had nothing else to do with her time but look after him as opposed to perhaps having other ambitions and ideas you know it was very old fashioned.

[00:16:57] It was but it was a deeply embedded stereotype and particularly difficult for the press especially what we might consider the tabloid press or the right wing press to accept that. And so in addition

[00:17:16] to all the other reasons why they might be looking to be critical the idea that you would speak out or you would have responsibilities or in your case even try to continue your profession

[00:17:29] was just viewed as some kind of terrible breach of protocol and tradition that had to be punished at every turn. Well I think that but that idea of stereotypes about women is very much a recurring

[00:17:47] theme isn't it in when we talk about women across the world the expectations that society puts on women then the idea of what a ideal woman should be actually so often has no resemblance to the

[00:18:05] reality of what women want for their lives and we certainly you know in the work that I do now with women entrepreneurs they're so often tell us about stereotypes being a huge barrier to them

[00:18:17] being able to do what they want to do. Well I think that's why what you're doing is so important because there is a expectation in some parts of the world let's say the more advanced economies

[00:18:32] that and I'll speak for my country particularly that it's really fine if you want to go work and have a profession good for you but you still have to do everything else and we're going to make

[00:18:43] it as hard as possible. We're not going to have paid leave which we don't have in the United States we're not going to have quality affordable childcare universally available which we do

[00:18:54] not have in the United States I mean the list goes on so go show what you can do but don't forget you have to do everything else you know that is just a burden that we saw

[00:19:06] particularly during COVID where you know the stresses and challenges of women being at home trying to homeschool their children trying to you know figure out how to keep their family going

[00:19:21] many of them lost jobs or many of them had what we called essential jobs so they had to go out into the workplace in the midst of a epidemic I mean the whole situation was incredibly

[00:19:34] challenging and so yeah you can go out and good for you you got an education go show us what you can do but don't forget we still expect you to fulfill the stereotypes of a prior generation

[00:19:46] as well. And I think that's particularly as you say COVID really brought that home it actually I think brought it home to men too yes but nevertheless all the studies show don't they

[00:19:57] that yes men did actually do a bit more over COVID they tended to think they did a lot more than perhaps they actually did but nevertheless the majority of the responsibilities still fell

[00:20:13] on to women who were then also and for many women they weren't able to continue to do their job as well because we rely so much don't we on usually other women who help us whether it's

[00:20:24] someone who might help you with your cleaning or someone who helps you with the childcare and then suddenly COVID meant you all of that went. Yeah that's why you know I'm fascinated to hear about your all's relationship to one another and what you've

[00:20:39] meant to each other through the years because the relationships that we form with other women is so powerful and so important and there's a kind of through line that runs through as well from

[00:20:50] one generation to the next and you've just taken us back a little bit and given us a glimpse of what life used to be like and you know this series is all about change and change makers and really

[00:21:03] looking at how did we go from some of those situations that you described from decades past to where we are today and how do we go from where we are today to an even better more

[00:21:14] equal tomorrow where we're not still with these outdated stereotypes so before we get into that better more equal tomorrow I think it's helpful to try to understand where we are in this current

[00:21:27] moment you know obviously we still have many challenges but if we kind of zoom out and look at the moment that we're in you know on the one hand women's rights are getting rolled back

[00:21:38] across the world we're in this moment of immense backlash that at times feels like we're a society that's doomed to oppress women forever but on the other hand you have women and girls across the

[00:21:53] world that are refusing to stand down and are using that as motivation and momentum to fight back harder than ever before so Hilary you have had a long career deriving change you were coming of age

[00:22:09] during the feminist movement in the 60s and you helped to usher in and lead the movement in the 90s can you give us some perspective as to this current moment that we're in I'm curious

[00:22:22] how it compares to the feminist movements of the past and where you feel like we really are on this long march to equality and then Cherie perhaps we can get into some more specific issues

[00:22:33] that we're still facing today and what the foundation is doing to tackle them. It's a great question and before COVID I would answer it by saying there's no doubt we've made progress we've made progress particularly with education and healthcare more girls are enrolled and

[00:22:53] graduating from every level of school from primary through postgraduate education we also had much greater access to healthcare to deal with the continuing problems of maternal mortality closer linked to infant mortality so access had improved outcomes were better all of that

[00:23:16] was hard fought but achievable we had made but not enough progress in economic advancement in governmental and political participation and positions of decision making and in the whole what's called the security realm in that women were primarily the victims of conflict

[00:23:40] around the world and very often not empowered to help end those post COVID it's I think fair to say that we lost ground in education and healthcare particularly in the developing world particularly in Africa because of the shutdown of economic livelihoods because of fear of the virus there

[00:24:06] was a lot of very difficult family situations where after driving down the rate of child marriage we saw it reversing and going back up we had the horrific setback of the Taliban coming back into power in Afghanistan so although progress is clear and we can quantify it in

[00:24:30] many parts of the world some of the hardest one gains have stalled and even slightly reversed and in some places like Afghanistan been you know totally decimated so here we are talking with you in February of 2023 the Taliban has been even worse than we expected Iran is killing

[00:24:51] people over young women refusing to abide by their oppressive dictates over the hijab Ukraine is seeing a barbaric assault by Russians targeting civilians primarily women children hospitals schools apartment buildings and we see legal setbacks like the Roe v. Wade

[00:25:15] abortion decision in the United States added to that is a new element which we're still trying to understand and deal with and that is the extraordinarily high level of sexism and misogyny and social media and the targeting of women in public life you know I was in northeast

[00:25:35] England I was up in Newcastle and Durham last summer with our mutual friend David Miliband speaking in his old constituency and I met with a group of elected women some in parliament some

[00:25:47] local elected officials all from labor because that was you know David's home as well as Tony's the number one thing they wanted to talk about was the fear they now feel being in public life and

[00:26:02] it's not only but certainly highly influenced by the murder of Joe Cox but it is the online abuse that is never ending and you know I think Shari and I come in for our fair share of that level

[00:26:19] abuse over the years from the so-called press but also online that is a deliberate effort to try to shrink the public space for women and particularly for young women who do you think you are getting out there and speaking out taking unpopular positions standing up for women's reproductive

[00:26:39] rights or the rights of minorities and indigenous people and so much else so it's a mixed story and we can't ever deny the progress because we have to keep building on it we have to keep

[00:26:50] lifting it up we have to make sure that people know it's possible but we have to go at that with our eyes wide open that there have been setbacks some of them almost unavoidable because of a

[00:27:01] global pandemic but some of them very deliberate and aimed at reinforcing these stereotypes and putting women in their place and shutting down their voices and I have to say in the last months

[00:27:16] as I've been trying to help and speak out on behalf of the women in Iran I am just stunned at their courage and to think about what they're being courageous about showing their hair I mean it

[00:27:32] is just astonishing I mean if you don't want to show your hair that's your choice but if you want to show your hair and as someone who's had a lot of hair issues in my life some days I

[00:27:41] want to show it and some days I don't that should be your choice but a government is telling them no they have to fit into a certain category and we've also seen back in my country states

[00:27:56] trying to tell women what they have to wear if they're in public life there's now dress codes being reintroduced so there is a battle between women's further advancement women's progress women's options autonomy and a backlash that is often unfortunately aided

[00:28:17] and abetted by the press and social media shout out to my home state in Missouri where there was just legislation proposed or passed for it passed for women not being able to show their arms

[00:28:29] yeah not show that not so no sleeveless anything and not only that problem with women's arms it's the first step on the road to perdition you know those poor men they can't control themselves

[00:28:43] if they see an arm I mean god forbid and they're supposed to wear big blocky blazers I mean it's not just don't show your arms wear a blazer so you can't wear a form-fitting dress without

[00:28:56] a blazer over it yeah I mean really well it is absurd and I have to say though that I am very convinced about the strength of women and their power and a lot of this is about the fear if you're

[00:29:14] like of the power of women and therefore I think it's really important that women take back their power and that women are able to use their power and we see that don't we as you say those women in

[00:29:27] Iran they know they may well at best suffer terrible beatings and at worst could even be executed but they still have decided they have to stand up and and fight for what they believe in to my

[00:29:41] mind I agree with you about the changes we've seen in education and health but also I think that when it comes to where the power lies in society and the power lies in the economy and in politics

[00:29:56] there's much more of a struggle even you know most men can concede that women should be healthy and educated the question is are they able to use that education in order to contribute beyond

[00:30:11] the home and into the wider society and that's when it starts getting difficult and when it came to thinking about what I could do when we finished at number 10 Downing Street it was this

[00:30:22] idea that if we can help women get economic independence if we can give them the tools that allows them to be able to make choices because they've got economic independence then that enables them to decide what is right and what is wrong for themselves and that's why the

[00:30:43] foundation focuses on women's economic independence because a woman who has control over her own money can walk away from abusive relationship can educate her children can make the myriad of choices which are already available to half the population but which seem to cause a problem when it comes

[00:31:05] to actually allowing women to exercise those choices as well and as you said Hilary the gap in education and health has closed but the gap in economic participation is still far too wide the latest figures about 150 to take 151 years before men and women reach equality and economic

[00:31:27] activities you know for me well we both in fact have grandchildren including granddaughters the idea that it's not even in my granddaughter's lifetime but probably maybe in the lifetime of her granddaughter is absolutely yeah unacceptable and those those statistics came from the world

[00:31:49] economic forum out of Davos and COVID did so much to set back the economy and certainly set back women that were now at this absurd figure of 150 but I want to add to what Cherise said

[00:32:00] about power you know we had to fight for rights and in some places they still are but most of the so-called civilized world recognizes the right to an education the right to certain healthcare not

[00:32:14] everything but much of it the right to vote the right now to do things like drive a car or have a job there has been a recognition of rights except in some of the most retrograde misogynistic

[00:32:26] places on the planet but there's a difference between having and exercising rights and having and exercising power and Cherise points really important you know Mary Beard the great classicist here in the UK at Cambridge wrote a wonderful little book about women and power and you know

[00:32:46] she went all the way back to the beginning of any kind of oral history recorded history about how after women we think in a much earlier time were viewed as much more autonomous active participants and hunting and gathering clans and the like with the advent of organized

[00:33:06] societies the ancient Greeks and Romans obviously which is what Mary has studied all of a sudden you see you know women being told to shut up and go away and their voices aren't wanted and they

[00:33:18] don't belong in the halls of power and you know maybe if they're mythologized as a powerful woman that's fine but those powerful women often get their comeuppance in the end anyway and so this

[00:33:31] is a long strain in human history that the question of women's power is a very frightening one too many men and even some women to be fair right so I think that what Cherise doing with

[00:33:44] the foundation is one of the clearest ways to have some sense of empowerment is to have economic capacity I hope you're enjoying this historic conversation as much as I am we'll be back in

[00:33:57] a minute to hear how the foundation puts power back into the hands of women I would love to hear you elaborate on that on what putting power back into the hands of women does I've

[00:34:17] heard you talk and write about the kind of ripple effect that occurs and what change actually looks like when you do start to put that power back in the hands of women well I think one of the things

[00:34:29] we can say is actually you're just asking about sustainable development goals how is the world progressing you know it doesn't make sense to ignore the skills and talents and contribution of 50% of the society and yet that's what we're doing I mean so for example the UNDP estimates that

[00:34:48] in sub Saharan Africa they're losing nearly a hundred billion dollars a year simply because of the gender gap in the labor market imagine what you could do with those hundred billion dollars particularly when you think that's in the hands of women because what tends to happen

[00:35:05] all the evidence shows that if women have and run successful businesses get their own money they're much more likely to put that back into their families and their local communities and less so on themselves so it's a really win-win and I think Hillary at one point you said

[00:35:24] it's a bit like saying that you can you can fly a twin engine plane but you're going to do it with just one engine operating and you think you said you can get there but you can get there so

[00:35:37] much better and safer and quicker if you use both engines and we literally are not using both engines and why does that benefit anybody it doesn't benefit men and it doesn't benefit

[00:35:50] women I think though we have to be a bit more positive there are plenty of men who do actually acknowledge that and who do work to make opportunities available to women to encourage

[00:36:03] women to to come on and I think both of us in our lifetime often found it because there weren't any women in things we were doing that it was men who recognized that and I think it's a cliche

[00:36:15] but there's something in it that fathers of daughters do tend to think about what's life going to be like for my little girl when she grows up and though they may never have thought

[00:36:26] what's life been like for my wife because that's just you know but my daughter on the other hand should not have to go through those things so it makes sense to everybody to allow women to put

[00:36:39] their talents to the use of the wider society the trouble is it's not as easy as saying oh here you are well you know you can work so get on and do it because of all the the sort of hidden

[00:36:50] barriers to women coming into the workforce and so we focus the work and the foundation in the practical help and assistance to have been to overcome some of those barriers the first one for example is just simple training doing business isn't necessarily just because you're good at

[00:37:09] something you know you could be a fantastic jeweler doesn't mean you necessarily can work out how to make that talent and jewelry into a business so business skills and development women often haven't had the same standard of education or if they have they've had to drop out

[00:37:28] of education either because the family only has a limited amount of money and so educates the boys or because they get pregnant or they get married so we focus a lot on skills and business

[00:37:41] training but you can only do that in a holistic way you have to understand the context in which women entrepreneurs are working and that context includes things like the stereotypical idea that

[00:37:55] women I mean I find this astonishing but so many of the women that we work with tellers this is the number one issue about them getting access to finance money to grow and

[00:38:05] expand their business and people literally say women aren't good with money you know women are a bigger risk if we lend them some money if you're a bank or if we invest in them if you're an investor

[00:38:17] and I mean I don't know who they think has been managing their household finances for you know I mean literally hundreds of years it is quite extraordinary it's just this sexist assumption that women don't do these things that women are it's actually not true all the evidence

[00:38:34] shows time and time again actually it's a better bet women are more conscientious about paying back their loans and yet and yet you find women smaller sums of money can be available to women who's

[00:38:48] smaller businesses but I was very aware when I was meeting and talking with women and when I was thinking about what I was doing that you know in the end to make a real change

[00:38:59] you need women to be able to do more than just a little business that brings in enough to help the family income you want women who are going to go out there and change their communities to

[00:39:09] change their countries and contribute to the development not just five jobs but 50 100 jobs you know women who can be role models for other women because this is another issue yeah you have a good mentorship program we do and if you look around and you don't see any other

[00:39:26] women doing the sort of roles that you want to do it becomes much harder but that's another reason to be optimistic because when I was at university you know there was 10 percent of us women now there's

[00:39:39] 50 percent I mean I think certainly in many places in the world women can look and see women doing jobs that perhaps 50 years ago they would have found just I just want to add on to

[00:39:54] what Cherie was saying about again the stereotypes versus the evidence because this is so maddening to people like us who've been pounding these streets trying to convince people to do things for many

[00:40:06] years now it is absolutely true women are better credit risks yeah now we're talking general but that's what statistics are right I'm sure there are individual women that somebody might know that wasn't but when you look at the overall rate of return and the reliability of paying back

[00:40:25] it is clear and that's from you know micro finance all the way up and maybe that you know women are just as Cherie said so conscientious and scared that you know they've got to do this

[00:40:36] work and then pay back whoever they borrowed the money from but the fact is despite that being a very clear track record from the smallest borrowers in micro credit to women who get in front of

[00:40:52] venture capitalists they're not getting the support that the track record and their ideas and their hard work should demand and that's that's so maddening because you know the I think what it's some ridiculously small percentage of 2% of VC money goes to women startups founders and directors

[00:41:16] or even companies aimed at producing products for women have a hard time getting through what is it that we can do to sort of break down the stereotypes because the evidence is there

[00:41:28] you know 2% is not a strategy 2% is an accounting error you know that's just a mistake somehow or other they've 2% got through you know and yet the people who give venture capital for example are

[00:41:42] supposed to be the most sophisticated investors in the world if they really read and understand the research they should be giving 50% to women but they don't and it goes back to this idea about

[00:41:53] what it's suitable for women to do what their assumptions about what women can and cannot do and we find it with the women we work with one of the women we work with in Botswana you know so many

[00:42:05] of the women they can't get money from the traditional means and so they self fund or they get it from friends and family but one of the women working with was talking about trying to raise some

[00:42:17] investment into her business and eventually a friend of the family did give her some but even though he knew her and knew everything about who he still said to her this is very

[00:42:26] risky thing that I'm doing you know actually it wasn't risky at all really but you know see there's some other there's some underlying stereotypes that lead to this conclusion on the

[00:42:37] part of people with money to invest and I read some fascinating studies I think they were out of Harvard Business School but could have been some other research effort let's envision a room like

[00:42:49] this where we have two men they're pitching we have two women who are pitching you all are the decision makers you know the men come in and man they sell it and they are aggressive their ideas

[00:43:04] the best idea that anybody's ever brought to the table and here's what they're going to do and they're excited and they're really aggressive in their presentation and they walk out of the

[00:43:13] room and the VC guys go wow I love that that was powerful these people have energy so Sheree and I walk in and we're like so excited and we're pitching and we make our case and we walk out of the

[00:43:27] room because I don't know they were a little aggressive I'm not sure I think they'll put people off you know so it's the kind it's not just the stereotypical assumptions about

[00:43:38] credit it's about women it's about who we are how we express ourselves how we fit into the mental images of what a woman is supposed to be or not and some women are really good at this you know

[00:43:53] some women are just absolutely perfect and they're few and far between but they're worth looking at because they have figured out how to run businesses make money and not be viewed as threatening for whatever reason usually male mentors male partners male you know advisors

[00:44:12] family money whatever the combination might be but so many other women and I talk to particularly young women all the time they always end up blaming themselves and it doesn't matter whether they're in the US UK Botswana Hong Kong wherever they are they don't see the structural

[00:44:30] systemic impediments the stereotypes the mental images and so they all what's wrong with me and why can't I succeed and why don't they like me and you know it becomes that kind of self-flagellation

[00:44:44] and a lot of good ideas we're so good at self-flagellation yeah but you see that's why as I said before has to be holistic so when we do our training when we provide our mentors you have to prepare

[00:44:57] women for this because there are ways of getting around it so it's not just about teaching about a profit and loss and EBITDA and whatever it is and all those things it's actually about

[00:45:08] how do you overcome these assumptions how do you come over in an interview so as to be powerful but not too powerful these are the important things and when we started in 2008

[00:45:21] we've come so far we've learned so much about how you can do that and we've actually reached 230,000 women since then and I was very pleased about that and I thought this is good and we've

[00:45:32] just finished we had a four-year campaign called the 100,000 Women Campaign again Hilary helped us launch it we succeeded in reaching an additional 100,000 women it was fantastic but we realized 100,000 women is a drop in the ocean we have to do more so we've set ourselves

[00:45:50] the target to reach a million women by 2030 which is when the sustainable development goals are supposed to be achieved and you know we can't do that on our own we want to sort of as the

[00:46:01] foundation to contribute to a movement of people who care about this issue who want to overcome these stereotypes who want to enable women to have the power to make their own choices about how life should be for them so that they can devise a way of working

[00:46:20] that suits what they want out of their lives and so whether it's by giving them access to our training programs or to our amazing mentorships we've got a platform which matches men and women across the world with women mentees in over a hundred different countries and that relationship

[00:46:40] that personal relationship between mentor and mentee is such an important one let's bring these women together let's work with other organizations let's work with people who are interested in this who are prepared to support us financially who are prepared to lend their voice

[00:46:56] to the campaign like Hilary is doing if we can do 100,000 in four years over COVID it's not impossible at all to reach a million by 2030 absolutely you know we work in Nigeria for example I mean you could literally reach a million women in Nigeria exactly by then because

[00:47:14] there are so many amazing women entrepreneurs and I think if you looked at Nigeria you'd find a lot of entrepreneurship actually comes from women but yet again they do get some but they

[00:47:25] don't get their fair share of that capital that leads them to be able to grow and expand their businesses as far as they could go so sadly we are coming to the end of our time

[00:47:38] together I have one more question that I would like to ask but first do you have any called action for our listeners you know if they're listening and they want to get involved they

[00:47:47] want to help support these women absolutely well join us come be part of this campaign whether it's financially but if you actually wanted a bit more personal involvement think of joining our mentoring platform as a mentor the satisfaction rates are like

[00:48:02] off the charts you know 100% the people who are mentees say they learnt so much about themselves learnt about skills they'd forgotten they had or maybe didn't even realise they did have and they make friends for life and our mentees talk about that invisible friend who walks beside

[00:48:21] them on the journey our mentoring program isn't designed for the mentors to tell the women what to do it's about them being their sounding board and they're the person who encourages them to keep

[00:48:33] going when there are times when they feel like they're going to give up it's a great program I love it we need to do more of it so think about that and on top of that always be conscious about

[00:48:47] stereotypes always be conscious that we have to continually challenge this idea somehow or other women are not as good as men that you know there are things that women can't do the things that women shouldn't do it's nonsense it's not about men or women it's about

[00:49:08] people being able to live out their dreams to live out and shape their lives in the way they want and to make those choices that work for them as an individual as part of a family

[00:49:22] and as part of a wider community absolutely absolutely well the final question that I wanted to ask about hope how after everything you both have been through throughout your lives everything you have seen and this moment of backlash that we're in that we've spoken about and all of

[00:49:41] the challenges we're up against what keeps you hopeful all the changes that we do see all the time people who refuse to give up or give in who keep going who make a difference in

[00:49:54] their own lives or in the lives of other people I'm so lucky because I see that on a constant basis you know through my work with the Clinton Foundation and the Clinton Global Initiative

[00:50:05] we're always you know just trying to help people find partners to do as much good as they can for as many people and it's amazing what canon does happen from that level of commitment

[00:50:20] so I always remain hopeful and I think from the perspective that you know I'm looking out at the world yeah there are challenges but as I said in the very beginning there's been a lot of

[00:50:33] progress and we're not going to turn back and we have to be committed to continuing that progress in all fields of human endeavor well I said at the beginning I believe in the power and

[00:50:45] the strength of women and I think whatever may have been the case in the past there is now such a momentum such a number of of women who've now have tasted what it's like to be able to

[00:50:59] make your own choices that some will of course be oppressed and crushed and fall back but I absolutely believe that having done that we're not going to give it up that easily and I also believe

[00:51:14] looking at my own sons and my grandson's only five so I'm not gonna count him on this that they will actually you know that there are plenty of men in this world who actually love their mothers respect their sisters you know adore their wives absolutely passionate about

[00:51:34] what they want for their daughters and who actually like to have a companion a friend an equal in the women in their lives well what a great note to end on Sharih, Hilary thank you so much for your time today thank you for everything that you've done to

[00:51:52] make the world a better place for women and girls and people of all genders and best of luck to the foundation as you continue to empower women to change the world thank you

[00:52:03] thanks for listening if you enjoyed this episode and think that we need more of women's stories in the world be sure to share with a friend and subscribe rate and review on apple spotify or wherever

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[00:52:59] Searle with communication support by Joe Cummings a special thanks to Amanda Brown, Kate York and Dan Kindle for their ongoing production support and invaluable advising be sure to tune into the next episode of the story of woman where I speak with Afghanistan's youngest ever female mayor

[00:53:17] Zarifa Ghaffari people were like oh seriously you're a woman you won't be able to handle that man why not you know what I'm having less than you you are a man that's it you know that's

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