REPLAY: S2 E1. Woman and Change: Setting the Scene with Hillary Clinton and Cherie Blair

[00:00:00] It's a mixed story and we can't ever deny the progress because we have to keep building on it,

[00:00:05] we have to keep lifting it up, we have to make sure that people know it's possible,

[00:00:10] but we have to go at that with our eyes wide open.

[00:00:12] I am very convinced about the strength of women and their power and a lot of this is about

[00:00:20] the fear if you like of the power of women and therefore I think it's really important

[00:00:25] that women take back their power.

[00:00:27] Hello and welcome to season two of The Story of Woman.

[00:00:34] In today's world, it can feel like change is happening but only in the wrong direction.

[00:00:40] While we agree there's still a lot of work to do, we're reframing that story.

[00:00:45] I'm your host Anna Stoecklein and each episode of this season

[00:00:48] I'll be exploring how women make change happen from those at the top helping to drive it.

[00:00:54] We'll look at where we are in this long march to equality,

[00:00:57] what lies ahead and how important you are in the fight.

[00:01:01] This isn't a story of a world that's doomed to oppress women forever.

[00:01:05] This is a story of an opportunity to grow stronger than ever before.

[00:01:10] Exactly as womankind has always done.

[00:01:14] Hello friends, welcome, welcome.

[00:01:18] Just a quick note to say that this is a replay episode of The Story of Woman.

[00:01:24] This is a replay of a previous episode with Hillary Clinton and Cherie Blair.

[00:01:30] This was the first episode of the second season of the podcast

[00:01:33] which was all about change and how women make it happen.

[00:01:37] I just wanted to take a minute and first of all say welcome to any new listeners

[00:01:43] and invite you to have a listen to this episode and then work your way back up

[00:01:47] through the rest of the season which has featured some more brilliant women like

[00:01:52] Ghafari, Afghanistan's youngest ever female mayor, and about a dozen more.

[00:02:05] And feel free to then go back even further to season one where I spoke with authors of

[00:02:11] non-fiction books whose work centers around women and gender.

[00:02:15] So we explored everything from the economy to health care,

[00:02:19] the way we design our city streets, and we even looked at the authority gap

[00:02:24] which impacts all of these spaces.

[00:02:27] You know, the one where we all believe men are assertive and women are aggressive.

[00:02:34] It's so pervasive you'll even hear Hillary and Cherie talk about this very gap today.

[00:02:41] Since this episode first came out I've heard from so many of you about what it meant to you,

[00:02:47] what you learned, and importantly what you plan to do about some of these issues that we discuss.

[00:02:54] Thank you so much for reaching out it always means so much to hear from you all

[00:02:58] and I'd love to keep hearing from you so please keep it coming.

[00:03:03] And of course please feel free to share far and wide

[00:03:06] so we can get even more people listening to this important story.

[00:03:10] All right here's a replay of the first episode of the Changemaker series

[00:03:14] with Hillary Clinton and Cherie Blair.

[00:03:20] Hello, hello, hello, welcome back or if you're new here welcome.

[00:03:26] I am so happy you're here and you've picked a really great episode to start

[00:03:31] because today I speak with Hillary Rodham Clinton and Cherie Blair.

[00:03:37] I know I can't believe it either.

[00:03:40] Even though Hillary and Cherie are long-time friends

[00:03:43] this was actually the first joint podcast interview they had ever done

[00:03:48] which is yeah pretty cool it's that's pretty cool.

[00:03:52] And unlike most of my interviews we got to do this one in person.

[00:03:56] I'm going to resist going on a tangent about what it was like to be in the room

[00:04:00] with these historic figures because I want to get into our conversation

[00:04:04] but let me just say especially to the Americans out there not to bring up any old wounds

[00:04:10] but Hillary Clinton would have been the best president America has ever seen

[00:04:16] and that's a fact that I'm just going to throw out there and leave,

[00:04:22] leave out there for now.

[00:04:24] We'll circle back.

[00:04:26] But if you're listening to this do have a watch of our conversation as well.

[00:04:29] It's on YouTube and on the website so you can watch us live and in person.

[00:04:34] So this is the first episode of a wider series that explores all things change

[00:04:39] and changemakers the people behind it.

[00:04:42] And my conversation with Hillary and Cherie really sets the scene for all of this.

[00:04:46] Both of these women have not just lived through but have helped to lead

[00:04:50] multiple waves of feminism so they know a thing or two about driving change.

[00:04:55] So of course I was keen to have them help us understand how exactly real

[00:04:59] and lasting change happens but I also wanted to have them help us make sense

[00:05:04] of the current moment that we're in right now this moment of both immense pushback

[00:05:09] and progress.

[00:05:11] So we talk a lot about that and about where we are and how to keep building

[00:05:14] on that momentum.

[00:05:16] And we also talk a lot about the foundation that Cherie started,

[00:05:19] the Cherie Blair Foundation for Women and all the important work that they're doing

[00:05:24] putting power back into the hands of women and women entrepreneurs around the world

[00:05:29] which as it turns out is one of the best ways that we can drive change

[00:05:34] and keep building on this momentum.

[00:05:36] And while there's so much evidence supporting the importance of putting power

[00:05:41] back into the hands of women, we also get it into the many barriers that hold women

[00:05:45] back from this power like the deeply ingrained but widely pervasive stereotypes

[00:05:52] that we have about women.

[00:05:54] You know the ones he's assertive yeah we like that but she's a little too aggressive

[00:06:00] for me yeah I think she's coming off a bit aggressive and get ready

[00:06:05] because we actually hear Hillary roleplay this exact scenario

[00:06:09] and if there's anybody in the world that knows what it's like to be stereotyped

[00:06:13] with a gendered adjective, it's Hillary Clinton.

[00:06:17] Which brings me to the last key point we discussed today.

[00:06:21] What is it like to be them?

[00:06:22] To be female leaders at the top in this male dominated world and public figures

[00:06:29] in a culture that terrorizes women who dare speak their mind?

[00:06:34] So yeah we get a little personal.

[00:06:37] And while these ladies don't need an introduction, I'm going to give one anyway

[00:06:41] because we should never stop talking about women's accomplishments and these women have many.

[00:06:47] Hillary Clinton has served as Secretary of State, Senator from New York, First Lady

[00:06:52] of the United States, First Lady of Arkansas, a practicing lawyer and law professor, and

[00:06:57] activist.

[00:06:58] Hillary also founded Onward Together, an organization that works to advance progressive

[00:07:03] values by encouraging people to organize, get involved and run for office.

[00:07:08] She's held a lot of first titles which are incredible but especially when you look at

[00:07:13] them all collectively.

[00:07:14] So she was one of just 27 women out of 235 students in her Yale Law School.

[00:07:21] She then became the first woman partner at the oldest law firm in Arkansas.

[00:07:26] She was the first woman to chair the National Board of the Legal Services Corporation.

[00:07:31] She was the first person who declared on the world stage that human rights are women's

[00:07:37] rights and women's rights are human rights.

[00:07:40] What a revolutionary thought.

[00:07:42] She was the first First Lady ever to be elected to public office, First Woman Senator

[00:07:48] from New York, and of course she was the first female nominee of a major U.S.

[00:07:54] political party.

[00:07:55] And she went on in this election to win the national popular vote by nearly 3 million

[00:08:01] votes.

[00:08:02] Let us never forget that fact.

[00:08:05] And hers was the first campaign in history of which the majority of donors were women.

[00:08:11] I love that.

[00:08:13] And Cherie Blair is a leading international human rights lawyer, writer, philanthropist

[00:08:17] and committed campaigner for women's rights.

[00:08:20] She is a leading King's counsel and was awarded a CBE in 2013 for her services to

[00:08:26] women's issues.

[00:08:28] Americans, just so you know, CBE and King's counsel, these are both basically the highest

[00:08:35] ranking awards you can get that are given out by His Majesty the King himself.

[00:08:41] So just know they are incredibly big deals.

[00:08:45] Cherie was a founding member of Matrix Chambers, which was formed in 2000 and specializes

[00:08:50] in human rights law.

[00:08:51] And she's the founder and chair of Omnia Strategy Law Firm.

[00:08:55] In 2008, she established the award-winning Cherie Blair Foundation for Women, which

[00:09:00] has so far supported over 200,000 women across more than 100 countries.

[00:09:05] And she was the first wife of a British Prime Minister who had her own full-time

[00:09:10] career.

[00:09:11] So clearly, these women are pioneers of many things.

[00:09:16] Politics, law, business, but also social roles.

[00:09:20] They pioneered a brand new type of female public figure.

[00:09:25] As you'll hear them talk about shortly, they were part of this first generation of

[00:09:28] professional women with husbands in charge of governments.

[00:09:33] But of course, like all the women that came before them, they were still expected

[00:09:36] to look a certain pretty way, to stay quiet and to play the supportive wife role.

[00:09:43] They didn't.

[00:09:44] I mean, they were supportive, but they refused to give up their own identities in spite

[00:09:49] of all the pushback and vitriol they received, to put it incredibly lightly.

[00:09:55] They both kept their careers and went down paths that looked really different than

[00:09:59] what was expected of them in these roles.

[00:10:01] And in doing so, they made it easier for the rest of us to do the same.

[00:10:05] And that's essentially how change happens.

[00:10:08] You know, there's the accomplishment itself.

[00:10:10] So Hillary and Cherie refusing to give up their identities.

[00:10:14] Then there's the example that it sets.

[00:10:16] We all see this and we start to refuse to give up our own identities.

[00:10:21] And then there's the shift in societal norms that happens.

[00:10:25] People start to get comfortable with and then begin to expect women to keep their

[00:10:30] own personal identities their entire life.

[00:10:34] Again, what a revolutionary thought.

[00:10:37] So that's why change really does happen every time a woman steps outside of her box and

[00:10:43] creates a little puncture in whatever ceiling is looming above her.

[00:10:48] And you know, it happens when someone blazes the trail, which makes the trail bigger

[00:10:54] and harder for society to ignore or deny.

[00:10:59] So America may not have been ready for a female president five years ago.

[00:11:03] But Hillary has normalized seeing a woman's name on the ballot, which has created more

[00:11:09] space for all of us to follow in her footsteps.

[00:11:12] So let's do it.

[00:11:14] Let's join a trail or blaze our own and keep changing the world.

[00:11:20] Exactly as womankind has done since the beginning of our subjugation.

[00:11:26] All right, that's enough from me.

[00:11:28] Please enjoy this incredible conversation with Hillary Rodham Clinton

[00:11:33] and Cherie Blair.

[00:11:38] Well, it is the absolute honor of a lifetime to be sat here with two of some of the most

[00:11:46] historic and important women of our time.

[00:11:49] Cherie Blair, CBE, KC and Secretary Hillary Rodham Clinton.

[00:11:55] Welcome and thank you so much for being here today.

[00:11:58] Oh, it's our pleasure.

[00:12:00] We're going to have a lot of fun.

[00:12:01] We love getting together for any occasion.

[00:12:03] So this was a terrific idea.

[00:12:05] Wonderful.

[00:12:06] I'm all for it.

[00:12:06] So I won't waste precious minutes of our time by asking you to introduce yourselves

[00:12:11] to us or reading out your bio.

[00:12:14] But what I would love is for you to introduce your relationship to us.

[00:12:18] I'd be curious to hear how you met, how long you've known each other,

[00:12:23] but also what types of roles have you played in each other's lives?

[00:12:26] And what has that really meant to you over all these years?

[00:12:30] I suppose we met through politics.

[00:12:32] We did through our husbands.

[00:12:33] Yes, and through our husbands.

[00:12:34] That's terrible cliché.

[00:12:37] But I think that is how...

[00:12:39] In the 90s.

[00:12:40] In the 90s.

[00:12:40] Probably when you were first lady.

[00:12:42] Right, mid 90s.

[00:12:44] And my husband had just become leader of the opposition.

[00:12:47] I know it's one of those memories where I met Tony

[00:12:52] right after he became leader of the opposition.

[00:12:56] He came to Washington and we had mutual friends who had a reception for him.

[00:13:01] And one of the very first things he said to me was,

[00:13:04] oh you have to meet my wife Sheree.

[00:13:07] You and she have so much in common.

[00:13:10] And it was not long after that that Bill and I were in London

[00:13:16] and we did get to meet and then they would come to Washington

[00:13:21] and we would get to spend time together.

[00:13:23] But we did have a lot in common.

[00:13:26] She's actually a practicing lawyer.

[00:13:27] I'm a recovering lawyer but we don't...

[00:13:30] You never really recover.

[00:13:31] You never recover.

[00:13:32] It's a lifelong effort.

[00:13:34] But we both really respect the law and believe it can be an instrument for justice

[00:13:41] and relieving oppression and certainly in Sheree's case taking on human rights abuses.

[00:13:48] So there was always so much to talk about.

[00:13:51] And not just political what's happening in the US or the UK

[00:13:56] but all of the personal and family and frankly trading stories about what it was like to be

[00:14:05] in the spotlight as a woman married to a president or married to a prime minister

[00:14:11] and all that came with that because it is not easy.

[00:14:15] I don't know that it ever was but it's more difficult in today's

[00:14:19] hyper information ecosystem than ever before.

[00:14:23] I always think that people don't realize quite...

[00:14:26] In fact they realize quite what it is like.

[00:14:28] They would never volunteer for it.

[00:14:30] You always think when it can't be that difficult

[00:14:32] and by the time you realize it really is that difficult, it's too late.

[00:14:35] It is.

[00:14:36] But I remember shortly after that we came to Washington

[00:14:39] and you took me around, you showed me all the things that you were doing

[00:14:42] to give me some ideas about what we might be able to do

[00:14:46] because you suddenly are in a position not of power but a position of influence

[00:14:52] what do you want to do with that?

[00:14:54] How can you try and make a contribution without meddling in things that you...

[00:15:01] The political things which you should only meddle in

[00:15:03] if you're actually an elected politician.

[00:15:05] Or asked.

[00:15:06] Or asked, well or asked of course.

[00:15:08] But you gave me a lot of good advice about that.

[00:15:11] We were in, if not the first, certainly close to the first generation

[00:15:18] of professional women whose husbands ended up in charge of governments

[00:15:24] and up until then there had been a kind of expectation

[00:15:30] that there was a role to be filled

[00:15:32] and it was largely to be seen but not heard

[00:15:36] and not to do anything independently.

[00:15:39] And I remember, I was very impressed how you

[00:15:43] really were determined to keep doing what you'd spend a lifetime preparing to do

[00:15:47] which was to represent clients, stand up and speak out

[00:15:52] and it was really brave, Cherie.

[00:15:55] Very difficult but brave.

[00:15:58] Well the thing about it was I always thought

[00:16:01] and when I went into Downing Street there had been always this assumption

[00:16:05] as you say seen and not heard.

[00:16:07] Later on I spoke to Mary Wilson

[00:16:09] whose husband Harold Wilson had been prime minister in the 60s and 70s

[00:16:12] and she said at some points I used to think

[00:16:15] why don't you just get a cardboard cut out of me and just stick it in the corner?

[00:16:18] You know because she felt so frustrated

[00:16:21] that that was literally what was expected of her.

[00:16:25] I was very conscious that however typical that might have been in the past

[00:16:30] in 1997 a vast majority of British women actually did work

[00:16:35] even when they had families and children

[00:16:37] because they for various reasons they both wanted to and also often had to.

[00:16:42] And therefore this idea that the wife of the prime minister had nothing else to do

[00:16:47] with her time and look after him

[00:16:50] as opposed to perhaps having other ambitions and ideas you know was very old fashioned.

[00:16:56] It was but it was a deeply embedded stereotype and particularly difficult for

[00:17:06] the press especially what we might consider the tabloid press or the right-wing press

[00:17:12] to accept that.

[00:17:14] And so in addition to all the other reasons why they might be looking to be critical

[00:17:22] the idea that you would speak out or you would have responsibilities

[00:17:26] or in your case even try to continue your profession

[00:17:29] was just viewed as some kind of terrible breach of protocol and tradition

[00:17:36] that had to be punished at every turn.

[00:17:39] Well I think that but that idea of stereotypes about women

[00:17:44] is very much a recurring theme isn't it?

[00:17:48] In when we talk about women across the world

[00:17:53] the expectations that society puts on women

[00:17:57] the idea of what a ideal woman should be

[00:18:01] actually so often has no resemblance to the reality of what women want for their lives.

[00:18:07] And we certainly you know in the work that I do now with women entrepreneurs

[00:18:12] they're so often tell us about stereotypes being a huge barrier

[00:18:17] to them being able to do what they want to do.

[00:18:19] Well I think that's why what you're doing is so important

[00:18:22] because there is a expectation in some parts of the world

[00:18:29] let's say the more advanced economies that

[00:18:33] and I'll speak for my country particularly

[00:18:36] that it's really fine if you want to go work and have a profession

[00:18:39] good for you but you still have to do everything else.

[00:18:42] And we're going to make it as hard as possible.

[00:18:45] We're not going to have paid leave which we don't have in the United States

[00:18:49] we're not going to have quality affordable child care universally available

[00:18:54] which we do not have in the United States.

[00:18:57] I mean the list goes on so go show what you can do

[00:19:02] but don't forget you have to do everything else.

[00:19:04] You know that is just a burden that we saw particularly during COVID

[00:19:08] where you know the stresses and challenges of women

[00:19:13] being at home trying to homeschool their children

[00:19:17] trying to figure out how to keep their family going.

[00:19:21] Many of them lost jobs or many of them had what we called essential jobs

[00:19:26] so they had to go out into the workplace in the midst of an epidemic.

[00:19:30] I mean the whole situation was incredibly challenging

[00:19:35] and so yeah you can go out and good for you

[00:19:38] you got an education go show us what you can do

[00:19:40] but don't forget we still expect you to fulfill the stereotypes

[00:19:44] of a prior generation as well.

[00:19:47] And I think that's particularly as you say COVID really brought that home.

[00:19:52] It actually I think brought it home to men too.

[00:19:54] Yes.

[00:19:55] But nevertheless all the studies show don't they that yes men did actually do a bit more

[00:20:02] over COVID.

[00:20:03] They tended to think they did a lot more than perhaps they actually did

[00:20:08] but nevertheless the majority of the responsibility still fell onto women

[00:20:14] who were then also and for many women they weren't able to continue to do their jobs as well

[00:20:19] because we rely so much don't we on usually other women who help us

[00:20:23] whether it's someone who might help you with the cleaning

[00:20:26] or someone helps you with the child care

[00:20:29] and then suddenly COVID meant all of that went.

[00:20:32] Yeah that's why you know I'm fascinated to hear about

[00:20:36] you're all's relationship to one another

[00:20:39] and what you've meant to each other through the years

[00:20:41] because the relationships that we form with other women is so powerful and so important

[00:20:47] and there's a kind of through line that runs through as well from one generation to the next

[00:20:52] and you've just taken us back a little bit

[00:20:54] and given us a glimpse of what life used to be like

[00:20:57] and you know this series is all about change and change makers

[00:21:02] and really looking at how did we go from some of those situations

[00:21:06] that you described from decades past to where we are today

[00:21:10] and how do we go from where we are today to an even better more equal tomorrow

[00:21:14] where we're not still with these outdated stereotypes

[00:21:18] so before we get into that better more equal tomorrow

[00:21:22] I think it's helpful to try to understand where we are in this current moment

[00:21:27] you know obviously we still have many challenges

[00:21:30] but if we kind of zoom out and look at the moment that we're in

[00:21:35] on the one hand women's rights are getting rolled back across the world

[00:21:40] we're in this moment of immense backlash that at times feels like

[00:21:45] we're a society that's doomed to oppress women forever

[00:21:49] but on the other hand you have women and girls across the world

[00:21:53] that are refusing to stand down and are using that as motivation and momentum

[00:21:59] to fight back harder than ever before

[00:22:03] so Hillary you have had a long career deriving change

[00:22:08] you were coming of age during the feminist movement in the 60s

[00:22:11] and you helped to usher in and lead the movement in the 90s

[00:22:16] can you give us some perspective as to this current moment that we're in

[00:22:21] I'm curious how it compares to the feminist movements of the past

[00:22:26] and where you feel like we really are on this long march to equality

[00:22:30] and then Cherie perhaps we can get into some more specific issues

[00:22:33] that we're still facing today and what the foundation is doing to tackle them

[00:22:37] That's a great question and before COVID I would answer it by saying

[00:22:43] there's no doubt we've made progress

[00:22:45] we've made progress particularly with education and health care

[00:22:50] more girls are enrolled and graduating from every level of school

[00:22:55] from primary through post-graduate education

[00:22:59] we also had much greater access to health care to deal with

[00:23:05] the continuing problems of maternal mortality

[00:23:09] close to linked to infant mortality

[00:23:11] so access had improved outcomes were better

[00:23:14] all of that was hard fought but achievable

[00:23:19] we had made but not enough progress in economic advancement

[00:23:24] in governmental and political participation and positions of decision making

[00:23:31] and in the whole what's called the security realm

[00:23:35] in that women were primarily the victims of conflict around the world

[00:23:41] and very often not empowered to help end those

[00:23:46] post-COVID it's I think fair to say

[00:23:49] that we lost ground in education and health care

[00:23:54] particularly in the developing world particularly in Africa

[00:23:59] because of the shutdown of economic livelihoods

[00:24:02] because of fear of the virus there was a lot of very difficult

[00:24:09] family situations where after driving down the rate of child marriage

[00:24:13] we saw it reversing and going back up

[00:24:16] we had the horrific setback of the Taliban coming back into power in Afghanistan

[00:24:23] so although progress is clear and we can quantify it

[00:24:29] in many parts of the world some of the hardest

[00:24:34] one gains have stalled and even slightly reversed

[00:24:38] and in some places like Afghanistan been you know totally decimated

[00:24:42] so here we are talking with you in February of 2023

[00:24:47] the Taliban has been even worse than we expected

[00:24:50] Iran is killing people over young women refusing to abide by their oppressive dictates

[00:24:57] over the hijab Ukraine is seeing a barbaric assault by Russians

[00:25:03] targeting civilians primarily women children hospitals schools apartment buildings

[00:25:10] and we see legal setbacks like the Roe v Wade abortion decision in the United States

[00:25:18] added to that is a new element which we're still trying to understand and deal with

[00:25:23] and that is the extraordinarily high level of sexism and misogyny on social media

[00:25:30] and the targeting of women in public life

[00:25:33] you know I was in northeast England I was up in Newcastle and Durham

[00:25:38] last summer with our mutual friend David Miliband speaking in his old constituency

[00:25:42] and I met with a group of elected women some in parliament some local elected officials

[00:25:49] all from labor because that was you know David's home as well as Tony's

[00:25:54] the number one thing they wanted to talk about was the fear they now feel being in public life

[00:26:01] and it's not only but certainly highly influenced by the murder of Joe Cox

[00:26:08] but it is the online abuse that is never ending and you know I think Sheree and I come in for our

[00:26:16] fair share of that level of abuse over the years from the so-called press but also online

[00:26:24] that is a deliberate effort to try to shrink the public space for women and particularly

[00:26:30] for young women who do you think you are getting out there and speaking out taking

[00:26:35] unpopular positions standing up for women's reproductive rights or the rights of minorities

[00:26:42] and indigenous people and so much else so it's a mixed story and we can't ever deny the progress

[00:26:48] because we have to keep building on it we have to keep lifting it up we have to make sure

[00:26:52] that people know it's possible but we have to go at that with our eyes wide open that there

[00:26:58] have been setbacks some of them almost unavoidable because of a global pandemic

[00:27:02] but some of them very deliberate and aimed at reinforcing these stereotypes and putting women

[00:27:11] in their place and shutting down their voices and I have to say in the last months as I've been

[00:27:17] trying to help and speak out on behalf of the women in Iran I am just stunned at their courage

[00:27:24] and to think about what they're being courageous about showing their hair I mean it is just

[00:27:32] astonishing I mean if you don't want to show your hair that's your choice but if you want to

[00:27:37] show your hair and as someone who's had a lot of hair issues in my life some days I want

[00:27:41] to show it and some days I don't that should be your choice but a government is telling them

[00:27:48] no they have to fit into a certain category and we've also seen back in my country states

[00:27:56] trying to tell women what they have to wear if they're in public life there's now dress codes

[00:28:01] being reintroduced so there is a battle between women's further advancement women's progress

[00:28:09] women's options autonomy and a backlash that is often unfortunately aided and abetted by

[00:28:18] the press and social media shout out to my home state in Missouri where there was just

[00:28:23] legislation proposed or passed oh it passed it passed for women not being able to show their

[00:28:29] arms yeah not show that not you yeah so no sleeveless anything and not only that what's

[00:28:34] the problem with women's arms it's the first step on the road to perdition you know those

[00:28:42] poor men they can't control themselves if they see an arm I mean god forbid and they're supposed

[00:28:47] to wear big blocky blazers I mean it's not just don't show your arms wear a blazer so

[00:28:53] you can't wear a form-fitting dress without a blazer over it yeah I mean really well

[00:29:01] yeah it is absurd and I have to say though that I am very convinced about the strength of women

[00:29:09] and their power and a lot of this is about the fear if you like of the power of women

[00:29:16] and therefore I think it's really important that women take back their power and that women

[00:29:21] are able to use their power and we see that don't we as you say those women in Iran they

[00:29:28] know they may well at best suffer terrible beatings and at worst could even be executed

[00:29:35] but they still have decided they have to stand up and and fight for what they believe in to my

[00:29:41] mind I agree with you about the changes we've seen in education and health but also I think

[00:29:49] that when it comes to where the power lies in society and the power lies in the economy

[00:29:55] and in politics there's much more of a struggle even you know most men can concede that women

[00:30:02] should be healthy and educated the question is are they able to use that education in order

[00:30:08] to contribute beyond the home and into the wider society and that's when it starts getting

[00:30:14] difficult and when when it came to thinking about what I could do when we finished at number

[00:30:19] 10 Downing Street it was this idea that if we can help women get economic independence

[00:30:27] if we can give them the tools that allows them to be able to make choices

[00:30:32] because they've got economic independence then that enables them to decide what is

[00:30:39] right and what is wrong for themselves and that's why the foundation focuses on women's

[00:30:45] economic independence because a woman who has control over her own money can walk away from

[00:30:51] abusive relationship can educate her children can make the myriad of choices which are already

[00:30:59] available to half the population but which seem to cause a problem when it comes to actually

[00:31:06] allowing women to exercise those choices as well and as you said Hillary the gap in

[00:31:12] education and health has closed but the gap in economic participation is still far too wide

[00:31:20] the latest figures about 150 it's going to take 151 years before men and women

[00:31:26] reach equality and economic activities you know for me well we both in fact have grandchildren

[00:31:32] including granddaughters the idea that it's not even in my granddaughter's lifetime but

[00:31:38] probably maybe in the lifetime of her granddaughter is absolutely

[00:31:46] unacceptable and those those statistics came from the world economic forum out of Davos

[00:31:51] and covid did so much to set back the economy and certainly set back women that were now at

[00:31:57] this absurd figure of 150 but I want to add to what Cherie said about power you know we had

[00:32:02] to fight for rights and in some places they still are but most of the so-called civilized world

[00:32:10] recognizes the right to an education the right to certain health care not everything but much of

[00:32:16] it the right to vote the right now to do things like drive a car or have a job there

[00:32:20] has been a recognition of rights except in some of the most retrograde misogynistic

[00:32:26] places on the planet but there's a difference between having and exercising rights and having

[00:32:33] an exercising power and Cherie's point really important you know Mary Beard the great classicist

[00:32:40] here in the uk at Cambridge wrote a wonderful little book about women in power and you know

[00:32:46] she went all the way back to the beginning of any kind of oral history recorded history

[00:32:52] about how after women we think in a much earlier time were viewed as much more

[00:32:59] autonomous active participants and hunting and gathering clans and the like with the advent

[00:33:05] of organized societies the ancient Greeks and Romans obviously which is what Mary has studied

[00:33:12] all of a sudden you see you know women being told to shut up and go away

[00:33:16] and their voices aren't wanted and they don't belong in the halls of power and you know maybe

[00:33:22] if they're mythologized as a powerful woman that's fine but those powerful women often

[00:33:28] get their comeuppance in the end anyway and so this is a long strain in human history

[00:33:35] that the question of women's power is a very frightening one to many men and even some women

[00:33:41] to be fair right so I think that what Cherie is doing with the foundation is one of the

[00:33:46] clearest ways to have some sense of empowerment is to have economic capacity

[00:33:53] I hope you're enjoying this historic conversation as much as I am we'll be back in a minute to

[00:33:58] hear how the foundation puts power back into the hands of women I would love to hear you

[00:34:12] elaborate on that on what putting power back into the hands of women does I've heard you

[00:34:17] talk and write about the kind of ripple effect that occurs and what change actually looks like

[00:34:24] when you do start to put that power back into the hands of women well I think one of the

[00:34:29] things we can say is actually you're just asking about sustainable development goals how is the

[00:34:34] world progressing you know it doesn't make sense to ignore the skills and talents and

[00:34:40] contribution of 50 percent of the society and yet that's what we're doing I mean so for

[00:34:46] example the UNDP estimates that in sub-saharan Africa they're losing nearly a hundred billion

[00:34:52] dollars a year simply because of the gender gap in the labor market imagine what you could do

[00:34:58] with those hundred billion dollars particularly when you think that that's in the hands of

[00:35:04] women because what tends to happen all the evidence shows that if women have and run

[00:35:09] successful businesses get their own money they're much more likely to put that back

[00:35:15] into their families and their local communities and less so on themselves so it's a really

[00:35:22] win-win and I think Hillary at one point you said it's a bit like saying that you can

[00:35:26] you can fly a twin engine plane but you're going to do it with just one engine operating

[00:35:33] and I think you said you can get there but you can get there so much better and safer and

[00:35:38] quicker if you use both engines and we literally are not using both engines and why does that

[00:35:46] benefit anybody it doesn't benefit men and it doesn't benefit women I think though we have

[00:35:52] to be a bit more positive there are plenty of men who do actually acknowledge that and who do

[00:35:59] work to make opportunities available to women to encourage women to to come on and I think

[00:36:04] both of us in our lifetime often found it because there weren't any women in things we were doing

[00:36:10] that it was men who recognized that and I think it's a cliche but there's something in it that

[00:36:16] fathers of daughters do tend to think about what's life going to be like for my little

[00:36:22] girl when she grows up and though they may never have thought what's life been like for

[00:36:27] my wife because that's just you know but my daughter on the other hand should not have to go

[00:36:32] through those things so it makes sense to everybody to allow women to put their talents

[00:36:40] to the use of the wider society the trouble is it's not as easy as saying oh here you are well

[00:36:45] you know you can work so get on and do it because of all the the sort of hidden barriers

[00:36:52] to women coming into the workforce and so we focus the work and the foundation in the practical

[00:36:59] help and assistance to women to overcome some of those barriers the first one for example is

[00:37:04] just simple training doing business isn't necessarily just because you're good at something

[00:37:10] you know you could be a fantastic jeweler doesn't mean you necessarily can work out how

[00:37:15] to make that talent and jewelry into a business so business skills and development

[00:37:21] women often haven't had the same standard of education or if they have they've had to drop

[00:37:28] out of education either because the family only has a limited amount of money and so educates the

[00:37:33] boys or because they get pregnant or they get married so we focus a lot on skills and business

[00:37:41] training but you can only do that in a holistic way you have to understand the context

[00:37:47] in which in women entrepreneurs are working and that context includes things like the

[00:37:54] stereotypical idea that women i mean i find this astonishing but so many of the women that

[00:37:59] we work with tell us this is the number one issue about them getting access to finance

[00:38:04] money to grow and expand their business and people literally say women aren't good with

[00:38:09] money you know women are a bigger risk if we lend them some money if you're a bank or if

[00:38:14] we invest in them if you're an investor and i mean i don't know who they think has been

[00:38:19] managing their household finances for you know i mean literally hundreds of years it is quite

[00:38:26] extraordinary and it's just this sexist assumption that women don't do these things that women are

[00:38:32] it's actually not true all the evidence shows time and time again that actually it's a better

[00:38:37] bet women are more conscientious about paying back their loans and yet and yet you find women

[00:38:45] smaller sums of money can be available to women for smaller businesses but i was very aware when i

[00:38:51] was meeting and talking with women and when i was thinking about what i was doing that

[00:38:56] you know in the end to make a real change you need women to be able to do more than just a

[00:39:01] little business that brings in enough to help the family income you want women who are going

[00:39:06] to go out there and change their communities to change their countries and contribute to the

[00:39:11] development not just five jobs but 50 100 jobs you know women who can be role models

[00:39:18] for other women because this is another issue yeah you have a good mentorship we do and if

[00:39:23] you look around and you don't see any other women doing the sort of roles that you want

[00:39:28] to do it becomes much harder but that's another reason to be optimistic because when

[00:39:35] i was at university you know there was 10 percent of us were women now there's 50

[00:39:39] percent i mean i think certainly in many places in the world women can look and see

[00:39:47] women doing jobs that perhaps 50 years ago they would have found just i just want to add on to

[00:39:54] what sheree was saying about again the stereotypes versus the evidence because this is so maddening

[00:39:59] to people like us who've been pounding these streets trying to convince people to do things

[00:40:05] for many years now it is absolutely true women are better credit risks yeah now we're talking

[00:40:12] general but that's what statistics are right i'm sure there are individual women that somebody

[00:40:16] might know that wasn't but when you look at the overall rate of return and the reliability

[00:40:24] of paying back it is clear and that's from you know microfinance all the way up and maybe that

[00:40:30] you know women are just as sheree said so conscientious and scared that you know they've

[00:40:35] got to do this work and then pay back whoever they borrowed the money from but the fact is

[00:40:40] despite that being a very clear track record from the smallest borrowers in microcredit to

[00:40:50] women who get in front of venture capitalists they're not getting the support that the track

[00:40:59] record and their ideas and their hard work should demand and that's that's so maddening

[00:41:05] because you know the i think what it's some ridiculously small percentage just said two

[00:41:11] percent of vc money goes to women startups founders and directors or even companies aimed

[00:41:17] at producing products for women have a hard time getting through what is it that we can do

[00:41:24] to sort of break down the stereotypes because the evidence is there you know two percent is not

[00:41:30] a strategy two percent is an accounting error you know that's just a mistake somehow somehow

[00:41:35] or other they've two percent got through you know and yet the people who give venture capital

[00:41:41] for example are supposed to be the most sophisticated investors in the world if they

[00:41:45] really read and understand the research they should be giving 50 percent to women but they

[00:41:51] don't and it goes back to this idea about what it's suitable for women to do what their

[00:41:56] assumptions about what women can and cannot do and we find it with the women we work with

[00:42:02] one of the women we work with in botswana you know so many of the women they can't get

[00:42:08] money from the traditional means and so they self-fund or they get it from friends and

[00:42:12] family but one of the women we were working with was talking about trying to raise some

[00:42:17] investment into her business and eventually a friend of the family did give her some

[00:42:22] but even though he knew her and knew everything about who he still said to her this is very

[00:42:26] risky thing that i'm doing you know actually it wasn't risky at all really but you see

[00:42:32] there's some other there's some underlying stereotypes that lead to this conclusion on

[00:42:37] the part of people with money to invest and i read some fascinating studies i think they were

[00:42:43] out of harvard business school but could have been some other research effort let's envision

[00:42:49] a room like this where we have two men they're pitching we have two women who are pitching

[00:42:55] you all are the decision makers you know the men come in and man they sell it and they are

[00:43:02] aggressive their idea is the best idea that anybody's ever brought to the table and here's

[00:43:08] what they're going to do and they're excited and they're really aggressive in their presentation

[00:43:13] and they walk out of the room and the vc guys go wow i love that that was i mean powerful

[00:43:19] these people have energy so sheree and i walk in and we're like so excited and we're pitching

[00:43:25] and we make our case and we walk out of the room because i don't know they were a little

[00:43:29] aggressive i'm not sure i think they'll put people off you know so it's the kind it's not

[00:43:34] just the stereotypical assumptions about credit it's about women it's about who we are how we

[00:43:43] express ourselves how we fit into the mental images of what a woman is supposed to be or

[00:43:50] not and some women are really good at this you know some women are just absolutely perfect

[00:43:56] and they're few and far between but they're worth looking at because they have figured out how to

[00:44:01] run businesses make money and not be viewed as threatening for whatever reason usually male

[00:44:08] mentors male partners male you know advisors family money whatever the combination might be

[00:44:15] but so many other women and i talk to particularly young women all the time

[00:44:19] they always end up blaming themselves and it doesn't matter whether they're in the us uk

[00:44:24] botswana hong kong wherever they are they don't see the structural systemic impediments the

[00:44:32] stereotypes the mental images and so they all what's wrong with me and why can't i succeed

[00:44:38] and why don't they like me and you know it becomes that kind of self-flagellation

[00:44:44] and a lot of good ideas we're so good at self-flagellating yeah but you see that's why

[00:44:49] as i said before it has to be holistic so when we do our training when we provide our mentors

[00:44:56] you have to prepare women for this because there are ways of getting around it so it's not just

[00:45:01] about teaching about a profit and loss and EBITDA whatever it is all those things it's actually

[00:45:07] about how do you overcome these assumptions how do you come over in an interview so as to be

[00:45:14] powerful but not too powerful these are the important things and when we started in 2008

[00:45:21] we've come so far we've learned so much about how you can do that

[00:45:26] and we've actually reached 230 000 women since then i was very pleased about that and i thought

[00:45:32] this is good and we've just finished we had a four-year campaign called the hundred thousand

[00:45:36] women campaign again hillary helped us launch it we succeeded in reaching an additional

[00:45:40] 100 000 women it was fantastic but we realized 100 000 women is a drop in the ocean

[00:45:46] we have to do more so we've set ourselves the target to reach a million women by 2030

[00:45:53] which is when the sustainable development goals are supposed to be achieved and you know we

[00:45:58] can't do that on our own we want to sort of as the foundation to contribute to a movement

[00:46:03] of people who care about this issue who want to overcome these stereotypes who want to enable

[00:46:10] women to have the power to make their own choices about how life should be for them so

[00:46:16] that they can devise a way of working that suits what they want out of their lives and so

[00:46:24] whether it's by giving them access to our training programs or to our amazing mentorships

[00:46:30] we've got a platform which matches men and women across the world with women

[00:46:34] mentees in over 100 different countries and that relationship that personal relationship

[00:46:42] between mentor and mentee is such an important one let's bring these women together let's work

[00:46:48] with other organizations let's work with people who are interested in this who are prepared to

[00:46:53] support us financially who are prepared to lend their voice to the campaign like hillary is

[00:46:58] doing if we can do a hundred thousand in four years over covid it's not impossible at all to

[00:47:04] reach a million by 2030 absolutely you know we work in nigeria for example i mean you could

[00:47:10] literally reach a million women in nigeria exactly by then because there are so many

[00:47:15] amazing women entrepreneurs and i think if you looked at nigeria you'd find a lot of

[00:47:20] entrepreneurship actually comes from women but yet again they do get some but they don't get

[00:47:26] their fair share of that capital that leads them to be able to grow and expand their

[00:47:33] businesses as far as they could go so sadly we are coming to the end of our time together

[00:47:38] i have one more question that i would like to ask but first do you have any

[00:47:42] called action for our listeners you know if they're listening and they want to get involved

[00:47:47] they want to help support these women absolutely well join us come be part of this campaign

[00:47:53] whether it's financially but if you actually wanted a bit more personal involvement think of

[00:47:58] joining our mentoring platform as a mentor the satisfaction rates are like off the charts you

[00:48:03] know 100 percent the people who are mentees say they learned so much about themselves

[00:48:10] learned about skills they'd forgotten they had or maybe didn't even realize they did have

[00:48:15] and they make friends for life and our mentees talk about that invisible friend who walks

[00:48:21] beside them on the journey our mentoring program isn't designed for the mentors to tell the women

[00:48:27] what to do it's about them being their sounding board and they're the person who encourages

[00:48:33] them to keep going when there are times when they feel like they're going to give up it's

[00:48:39] a great program i love it we need to do more of it so think about that and on top of that

[00:48:45] always be conscious about stereotypes always be conscious that we have to continually

[00:48:51] challenge this idea somehow or other women are not as good as men but you know there are

[00:48:58] things that women can't do the things that women shouldn't do it's nonsense it's not about

[00:49:06] men or women it's about people being able to live out their dreams

[00:49:13] to live out and shape their lives in the way they want and to make those choices that work for them

[00:49:19] as an individual as part of a family and as part of a wider community absolutely absolutely

[00:49:26] well the final question that i wanted to ask about hope how after everything you both have

[00:49:33] been through throughout your lives everything you have seen and this moment of backlash that

[00:49:39] we're in that we've spoken about and all of the challenges we're up against what keeps you hopeful

[00:49:45] all the changes that we do see all the time people who refuse to give up or give in

[00:49:52] who keep going who make a difference in their own lives or in the lives of other people

[00:49:58] i'm so lucky because i see that on a constant basis you know through my work with the

[00:50:02] clinton foundation and the clinton global initiative we're always you know just trying

[00:50:07] to help people find partners to do as much good as they can for as many people and it's amazing

[00:50:15] what can and does happen from that level of commitment so i always remain hopeful and

[00:50:24] i think from the perspective that you know i'm looking out at the world yeah there are

[00:50:30] challenges but as i said in the very beginning there's been a lot of progress and we're not

[00:50:35] going to turn back and we have to be committed to continuing that progress in all fields of

[00:50:42] human endeavor well i said at the beginning i believe in the power and the strength

[00:50:46] of women and i think whatever may have been the case in the past there is now

[00:50:52] such a momentum such a number of of women who now have tasted what it's like to be

[00:50:58] able to make your own choices that some will of course be oppressed and crushed and fall back

[00:51:05] but i absolutely believe that having done that we're not going to give it up that easily and i

[00:51:12] also believe looking at my own sons and my grandson only five so i'm not going to count

[00:51:20] him on this that they will actually you know that there are plenty of men in this world

[00:51:26] who actually love their mothers respect their sisters you know adore their wives

[00:51:32] absolutely passionate about what they want for their daughters and who actually like to have

[00:51:38] a companion a friend an equal in the women in their lives well what a great note to end on

[00:51:46] sheree hillary thank you so much for your time today thank you for everything that you've done

[00:51:52] to make the world a better place for women and girls and people of all genders and best of

[00:51:58] luck to the foundation as you continue to empower women to change the world thank you

[00:52:03] thanks for listening if you enjoyed this episode and think that we need more of women's stories

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[00:52:44] and a good night's sleep knowing that you are helping to finally change the story of mankind

[00:52:50] to the story of humankind this episode was produced and hosted by me

[00:52:56] anna's deckline it was edited by maddie sorrel with communication support by joe cummings

[00:53:02] a special thanks to amanda brown kate york and dan kindle for their ongoing production

[00:53:08] support and invaluable advising be sure to tune into the next episode of the story of woman

[00:53:13] where i speak with afghanistan's youngest ever female mayor zarifa ghaffari people were like

[00:53:19] oh seriously you're a woman you won't be able to handle that man why not you know what i am

[00:53:26] having less than you you are a man that's it you know that's how the afghan society is

[00:53:32] and i wanted to prove that man we are also able to handle whatever the office is and

[00:53:37] whatever the position is