S3 E6. From Beauty Ideals to Empowering Stories: A Conversation with Glamour's UK Editor-in-Chief, Deborah Joseph

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[00:00:57] When someone new starts at Glamour, the thing I always say to them is,

[00:01:01] Glamour is it's the women's story behind the news.

[00:01:05] So we're not just reporting on the news. You know, the newspapers report on the news.

[00:01:09] We're one or two days later when the human interest stories start coming out

[00:01:13] and the women's lives and the way that women's lives have been affected from a scenario,

[00:01:16] whether it's war or financial crash, whatever it is,

[00:01:20] we're there to report on the women's and the way that women's lives are affected.

[00:01:24] And that's very much where our heartland is.

[00:01:37] Welcome to season three of The Story of Woman.

[00:01:40] I'm your host, Anna Steclain.

[00:01:43] From the intricacies of the economy and health care

[00:01:45] to the nuances of workplace bias and gender roles,

[00:01:49] each episode of this season features interviews with thought leaders

[00:01:52] who provide fresh perspectives on critical global issues

[00:01:55] all through the female gaze.

[00:01:58] But this podcast isn't just about women's stories.

[00:02:01] It's about rewriting our collective story to be more inclusive,

[00:02:05] equitable and effective in driving change.

[00:02:08] It's about changing the current story of mankind

[00:02:11] to the much more complete story of humankind.

[00:02:15] Hello and welcome back.

[00:02:30] Thank you as always for being here.

[00:02:33] So for today's episode, we've got another guest host taking over

[00:02:38] and not just any guest host, but the fabulous Joanna Cummings,

[00:02:43] who was The Story of Woman's first official hire

[00:02:46] during the very busy time that was season two.

[00:02:51] You know, the one that featured Hillary Clinton,

[00:02:54] Cherie Blair, and a few other powerhouses you may have heard of.

[00:02:59] Joanna was absolutely crucial to that series.

[00:03:03] Number one, just for providing me support

[00:03:06] and helping with my sanity through the craziness,

[00:03:09] but also in all things visual that came with that season.

[00:03:13] Most notably, the lovely social media images you saw

[00:03:16] and the incredible newsletter which featured news about women

[00:03:19] from around the world, a woman of the week

[00:03:22] and a killer quote every week.

[00:03:24] She absolutely crushed that newsletter

[00:03:26] and based on the feedback, I know it was a crowd favorite,

[00:03:29] but sadly it's since had to go on pause

[00:03:32] because, well, I'm back to being just one person

[00:03:35] and there are only so many hours in the day.

[00:03:37] But hopefully with the help of Joanna,

[00:03:39] we can get it going again one day in the future.

[00:03:42] But anyway, Joanna has been a friend first and foremost

[00:03:46] and always a fierce advocate for women.

[00:03:49] I was thrilled when she had the idea

[00:03:51] of getting Deborah Joseph, the UK editor

[00:03:53] and chief of Glamour magazine on the podcast.

[00:03:56] And given Joanna's background is in magazines,

[00:04:00] I mean, get this,

[00:04:02] she's literally created a magazine

[00:04:04] for people who create magazines.

[00:04:07] I thought it only made sense for her to be the one

[00:04:10] to do the interview and I'm glad she said yes

[00:04:13] because she absolutely smashed it.

[00:04:16] But I'll let Joanna tell you more about Deborah

[00:04:18] and what they get into during their conversation.

[00:04:21] I hope you enjoy.

[00:04:23] Hello, my name is Joanna Cummings.

[00:04:27] I'm a freelance writer and editor

[00:04:29] and editorial director of the Grub Street Journal

[00:04:33] a magazine for magazine people.

[00:04:35] As a magazine person myself

[00:04:37] and a previous collaborator of the story of women,

[00:04:40] it was my very great honor to guest interview

[00:04:42] Deborah Joseph, European editorial director

[00:04:45] of Glamour magazine.

[00:04:47] Deborah is a personal hero of mine.

[00:04:50] She's an incredible editor who's really changed the face

[00:04:53] of Glamour and is an outspoken promoter

[00:04:56] and defender of women's issues.

[00:04:59] As well as heading up the Glamour team,

[00:05:01] on a more personal level, she's spoken honestly

[00:05:03] about motherhood, body image, violence against women

[00:05:06] and more. Plus she's incredibly kind

[00:05:09] and a real champion of women in the media.

[00:05:12] You don't need me to tell you that when it comes

[00:05:14] to female empowerment,

[00:05:16] women's magazines don't have the best track record.

[00:05:19] For decades now, they have been almost a symbol

[00:05:22] of internalized misogyny.

[00:05:25] Encouraging women to shrink and starve their bodies,

[00:05:28] succumb to unattainable beauty ideals,

[00:05:30] pursue unsustainable consumerist behavior,

[00:05:33] and cast aside their own pleasure for the sake of the men

[00:05:36] in their lives. And they are only a few examples.

[00:05:40] But as you'll hear from my chat with Deborah,

[00:05:42] that could be starting to change.

[00:05:45] Glamour, ostensibly a beauty first brand,

[00:05:48] has now, with thanks to Deborah, positioned itself

[00:05:51] more as an educator of women,

[00:05:54] a valid new source that shows the world's events

[00:05:57] through a women's lens. Even a tool of empowerment

[00:05:59] for its readers. Here, Deborah tells me more

[00:06:02] about Glamour's aims, its two-way relationship

[00:06:05] with its 9 million followers, and some of the projects

[00:06:08] the team is working on to change the lives of women

[00:06:11] in the UK and beyond. I hope you get as much from it

[00:06:14] as I did. I'm joined today by Deborah Joseph,

[00:06:25] Glamour UK editor-in-chief and European editorial director.

[00:06:29] Deborah, for the very few people I'm sure

[00:06:33] who have not really encountered Glamour,

[00:06:36] could you tell us a little bit about the brand

[00:06:39] and its aims?

[00:06:40] Sure. Well, firstly, Joe, thanks so much for having me.

[00:06:43] I'm really honoured to be here

[00:06:45] and excited to talk to you about this.

[00:06:47] So Glamour's a really amazing brand.

[00:06:50] It launched in America in, I think it was 1939,

[00:06:53] and it launched in the UK about 22 years ago.

[00:06:57] I was actually on the launch of the magazine.

[00:06:59] It was my third job,

[00:07:01] and I joined as entertainment editor,

[00:07:04] and I was so excited because it was the first magazine

[00:07:07] ever to have a smaller size,

[00:07:10] so the idea was that it fitted into your life

[00:07:12] and into your handbag.

[00:07:14] And it was always about a reflection of women's lives

[00:07:18] and where they were.

[00:07:19] And although the world has changed drastically

[00:07:21] in the last 22 years, I think it always stood up

[00:07:24] for women, allowed them to be independently minded

[00:07:27] and to question the way society treated women,

[00:07:30] and I think it's always done that from day one.

[00:07:32] In America, it was the first magazine for women who work,

[00:07:35] and that was in the 1940s.

[00:07:37] So, you know, it's always had female empowerment at its heart.

[00:07:40] And if anything, I'd say it's probably

[00:07:42] the original female empowerment brand.

[00:07:45] When I took over and came back as editor

[00:07:47] almost six years ago,

[00:07:49] I was asked to make it digital first.

[00:07:52] So we were moving away from it being a print brand

[00:07:54] and to go into a digital future,

[00:07:56] you know, on web, on social,

[00:07:58] and that was a huge challenge in itself.

[00:08:01] But what we realised was that the majority of the glamour audience

[00:08:04] were accessing its content on their mobile phone.

[00:08:07] So I always think, you know, it's still in your handbag,

[00:08:10] but this time it's on your phone rather than in a magazine.

[00:08:13] So when I started, I really wanted to make

[00:08:15] the female empowerment element of it

[00:08:17] at the heart and centre of absolutely everything that we did.

[00:08:20] And at the same time as I was doing this,

[00:08:22] the Editor in America, Sam Barry,

[00:08:24] was also taking American glamour

[00:08:26] into a digital first future

[00:08:28] and also had female empowerment at the heart.

[00:08:31] So about two years ago, we globalised the brand

[00:08:34] and it was such an interesting conversation

[00:08:36] because Sam and I had come to the same conclusion,

[00:08:38] which was glamour is first and foremost

[00:08:40] for female empowerment brand.

[00:08:42] We rebranded it for women reshaping the world

[00:08:45] and everything we do, every touch point,

[00:08:48] whether it's across the conversations around finance

[00:08:50] or beauty or fashion

[00:08:52] or lifestyle or body image,

[00:08:54] it's got women's lives

[00:08:56] and interests at the heart of everything we do.

[00:08:58] When someone new starts at glamour,

[00:09:00] the thing I always say to them is,

[00:09:02] glamour is it's the women's story behind the news.

[00:09:05] So we're not just reporting on the news.

[00:09:07] You know, the newspapers report on the news.

[00:09:09] We're one or two days later

[00:09:11] when the human interest stories start coming out

[00:09:13] and the women's lives and the way that women's lives

[00:09:15] have been affected from a scenario,

[00:09:17] whether it's war or financial crash, whatever it is,

[00:09:21] we're there to report on the women's

[00:09:23] and the way that women's lives are affected

[00:09:25] and that's very much for our heartlanders.

[00:09:27] I love that. I love that lens.

[00:09:29] That way of looking at the news

[00:09:31] and helping women in particular process that news,

[00:09:35] seeing it a way that's relevant to them.

[00:09:37] Yeah, women's stories quite often are hidden, right?

[00:09:40] We know that from history

[00:09:42] and it's very much we see our role

[00:09:44] as making sure that those stories come to the surface

[00:09:46] and come to the forefront.

[00:09:48] So, I mean, you touched on this.

[00:09:51] I wanted to ask you how the brand has changed.

[00:09:53] You talked about glamour really always being

[00:09:56] an empowering magazine, an empowerment magazine.

[00:09:58] How do you think that's shifted in the last couple of decades?

[00:10:01] I mean, the magazine reflects

[00:10:03] what's happened in the world and to women's lives generally.

[00:10:06] So, I think the conversation around, you know,

[00:10:09] I think 20 years ago,

[00:10:11] even just the word feminism was a dirty word.

[00:10:13] Even if you believed in equal rights for women,

[00:10:15] you wouldn't necessarily say that you were a feminist.

[00:10:18] And I think now that word has been owned

[00:10:21] and appreciated in a way that it never was.

[00:10:24] And I think a lot of the conversations around

[00:10:27] the shaming of women, language has changed so much for women.

[00:10:31] Like I talked sometimes on my team to some of the Gen Z

[00:10:34] and young millennials and say, even words like slut shaming,

[00:10:36] for example, just didn't exist 20 years ago.

[00:10:39] So we knew there were scenarios happening,

[00:10:41] but you couldn't quite put your finger on it

[00:10:43] and couldn't give it a word or a language.

[00:10:45] I think social media has given a voice to women

[00:10:48] to be able to speak up for themselves in a way

[00:10:51] that we've never been allowed to before

[00:10:53] because we might have been, you know,

[00:10:55] kept quiet by institutions and systems.

[00:10:58] And actually now we've just got the voice to speak louder.

[00:11:01] And I've always wanted Glamour,

[00:11:03] since I came on board, to very much be a platform

[00:11:06] for women's voices and marginalised voices,

[00:11:09] for people to feel heard

[00:11:11] and for us to reflect the conversations

[00:11:13] that are really going on out there

[00:11:15] and the experiences that all women have had

[00:11:17] that maybe they weren't talking about before.

[00:11:20] That touches on something else I want to cover.

[00:11:23] How big a role do you think

[00:11:25] women's magazines or Glamour specifically

[00:11:29] should or do play in women's journeys as feminists

[00:11:34] or into that kind of coming into knowledge around feminism?

[00:11:38] Well, it's interesting.

[00:11:39] I think because we take quite a newsy stance on things,

[00:11:42] in some cases we are actually people's news source.

[00:11:45] So a lot of readers, friends say to me,

[00:11:48] I didn't know about that story until you wrote about it.

[00:11:51] And we often have such a strong opinion on things.

[00:11:54] We use a lot of great feminist writers

[00:11:57] and they really put forward strong points of view

[00:12:00] on what's going on in the world.

[00:12:02] And I think we helped shape people's views.

[00:12:04] We unlocked taboos that people previously maybe

[00:12:07] didn't want to talk about around periods

[00:12:10] and body image and shaming

[00:12:12] and motherhood shaming and body shaming

[00:12:16] and a fear of asking for more money at work

[00:12:19] or, you know, I think the Me Too movement opened up

[00:12:22] a whole new dialogue and we very much covered

[00:12:25] that kind of conversation every single day.

[00:12:27] And we're not quiet.

[00:12:29] We're not quiet.

[00:12:30] We jump on conversations that I know

[00:12:33] maybe in the past have been quiet.

[00:12:35] And obviously talked about feminist writers, et cetera.

[00:12:39] How do you ensure that Glamour remains diverse,

[00:12:44] intersectional?

[00:12:46] How do you make sure it embodies those qualities

[00:12:50] that are really, really crucial to modern day feminists?

[00:12:53] I don't think that as a...

[00:12:55] Obviously we're a business and we're a platform

[00:12:57] and I don't think that any business

[00:12:59] can be truly diverse unless you have a diverse team.

[00:13:02] So as much as possible I hide diversely

[00:13:05] to make sure that we have as many different opinions

[00:13:08] in the meetings, in the newsroom

[00:13:10] so that when topics come up

[00:13:12] we're not speaking on behalf of other people too much.

[00:13:15] So quite often a conversation will come up

[00:13:18] and someone will say, well actually I'm from that community

[00:13:21] and that's not my experience

[00:13:23] and that's not the way my community see things.

[00:13:25] And I've learnt a lot from all my team for that reason

[00:13:28] because we really do have people from all walks of life

[00:13:32] and very different political backgrounds

[00:13:36] and different ethnic heritages

[00:13:39] and for me that's how you make sure

[00:13:42] that your brand is diverse.

[00:13:44] You have to start from within.

[00:13:46] And I know you've spoken before about

[00:13:48] what it was like as a Gen Xer

[00:13:50] working with millennials.

[00:13:52] Could you tell us a little bit more about that

[00:13:54] and how that's kind of crossed over

[00:13:56] into that kind of more diverse magazine landscape?

[00:13:58] I'll give you a story that happened

[00:14:00] when I first started here

[00:14:02] that really made me understand

[00:14:04] just how different certain viewpoints are

[00:14:06] based on the generation that you come from.

[00:14:08] So we had a conversation about Kiley

[00:14:11] and I referred to the fact that

[00:14:13] Kiley had had breast cancer

[00:14:15] and the team said to me

[00:14:17] she never had breast cancer

[00:14:19] and I was like, yes she did

[00:14:21] and they're like, no she didn't

[00:14:23] I was like, yes she did, she absolutely did

[00:14:25] and then I very quickly realised

[00:14:27] that I was talking about Kylie Minogue

[00:14:29] and they were talking about Kylie Jenner

[00:14:31] so reference points differ.

[00:14:33] Based on the generation you're born

[00:14:35] and actually again

[00:14:37] when I talk about diversity

[00:14:39] of thought and experience

[00:14:41] and age diversity is very much part of our conversation

[00:14:43] so I love the fact that

[00:14:45] Gen X women

[00:14:47] sometimes I tell them about the experiences

[00:14:49] that I had at work when I was younger

[00:14:51] or in society and dating

[00:14:53] and they just cannot believe

[00:14:55] the things that women my age used to have

[00:14:57] to manage and deal with

[00:14:59] that they just wouldn't tolerate

[00:15:01] on any level whatsoever now

[00:15:03] and then more vocal

[00:15:05] they have, as I said, I think

[00:15:07] have developed a language to reflect

[00:15:09] their life experiences and I'm personally

[00:15:11] very thankful for that because

[00:15:13] even just words like gaslighting never existed

[00:15:15] in my time when I was younger

[00:15:17] so I think that

[00:15:19] feminism is a much more comfortable

[00:15:21] conversation for the Gen Z

[00:15:23] and young millennials. My generation

[00:15:25] were huge feminists

[00:15:27] huge, huge feminists

[00:15:29] but we didn't have social media

[00:15:31] we didn't have the platform to be able to speak about it

[00:15:33] in the way that they do now.

[00:15:35] As I said, do you feel that

[00:15:38] there is a lot more openness

[00:15:40] talking about these issues

[00:15:42] that you mentioned earlier?

[00:15:44] Sex, sexuality, money

[00:15:46] Oh, totally

[00:15:48] totally

[00:15:50] 100%

[00:15:52] For example, I would never have discussed my salary

[00:15:54] with even my best friends

[00:15:56] I just wouldn't have discussed it

[00:15:58] and that meant that

[00:16:00] the fact that so many women were being underpaid

[00:16:02] was shrouded in secrecy

[00:16:04] and now the next generation of women

[00:16:06] all our audience, our readers

[00:16:08] are more comfortable talking about

[00:16:10] finance and money and maybe they'll call someone up

[00:16:12] before they go for a job interview and say

[00:16:14] well what's the ballpoint salary

[00:16:16] bandwidth that I should be asking for

[00:16:18] and this is always that women are empowering themselves

[00:16:20] to make sure that they're paid equally

[00:16:22] so that's just one small example of a shift

[00:16:24] in openness

[00:16:26] and confidence.

[00:16:28] That growth in confidence I'm even more aware of

[00:16:30] I'm an old millennial

[00:16:32] least sexy

[00:16:34] category I think

[00:16:36] and even I'm taking it back

[00:16:38] now the way that people talk about it

[00:16:40] I did a feature recently

[00:16:42] for Grub Street

[00:16:44] I interviewed a 32-year-old journalist

[00:16:46] and she was telling me

[00:16:48] so frankly about her sex life

[00:16:50] I was really, really blown away

[00:16:52] and I felt like

[00:16:54] I was clutching my pearls in a way

[00:16:56] because I thought, oh my god I would never have spoken

[00:16:58] about it like this but at the same time

[00:17:00] I was full of admiration for her

[00:17:02] to be able to speak like that to someone she'd just met

[00:17:04] for the first time

[00:17:06] and I thought there's something really heartening about that

[00:17:08] I mean isn't that amazing

[00:17:10] that openness and sharing of stories

[00:17:12] empowers all of us?

[00:17:14] No I agree

[00:17:16] Obviously when you're running a magazine

[00:17:18] talking about messaging around feminism

[00:17:20] and etc but

[00:17:22] you've also got to be commercially savvy

[00:17:24] you've got to sell in the magazine

[00:17:26] you've got advertisers and things

[00:17:28] and it balance that kind of need for commerciality

[00:17:31] with the empowerment

[00:17:33] you know when we're talking about things like diet culture

[00:17:35] obviously beauty

[00:17:37] because I'm as a beauty first publication

[00:17:39] I think it's really important

[00:17:41] that the advertisers that we work with reflect

[00:17:44] off our values

[00:17:46] and it's something that we discuss

[00:17:48] when we're doing a partnership with a brand

[00:17:50] we very much speak to the brand directly

[00:17:52] and say what's your history in this topic

[00:17:54] you know what's their history

[00:17:56] they've shown up for women

[00:17:58] they've shown up for women in their past

[00:18:00] and how are they showing up for women in their present

[00:18:02] you know a lot of brands are changing

[00:18:04] or also becoming more aware of the need to support women

[00:18:06] publicly

[00:18:08] and you know sometimes they come to us

[00:18:10] and say we want to change

[00:18:12] you know we want to work with you

[00:18:14] we want to be more open and empowered

[00:18:16] and we want to make sure that it's an authentic partnership

[00:18:18] I think that word authenticity

[00:18:20] is what's key here

[00:18:22] And also as a very big

[00:18:24] women's magazine have you managed to

[00:18:26] have an impact

[00:18:28] in terms of representation

[00:18:30] in terms of

[00:18:32] the way advertisers

[00:18:34] create material

[00:18:36] do you think you've managed to

[00:18:38] kind of shift things as a brand

[00:18:40] Absolutely yes

[00:18:42] I mean we talk to beauty brands

[00:18:44] and for example if they bring out a range of foundations

[00:18:46] if they're only bringing out a small range of foundations

[00:18:48] we won't cover them

[00:18:50] but if they're not

[00:18:52] but every type of skin colour

[00:18:54] then they're not right for us

[00:18:56] because we want to be fully diverse

[00:18:58] we want to make sure that any woman who comes to glam

[00:19:00] feels seen

[00:19:02] and if you come

[00:19:04] and we start talking about a foundation wage

[00:19:06] that stops at like a light brown shade

[00:19:08] then that's not representative of our audience

[00:19:10] so yeah we absolutely talk

[00:19:12] to brands about that kind of thing

[00:19:14] In other ways in terms of imagery

[00:19:16] we're very strong

[00:19:18] you know if people send us brand imagery

[00:19:20] there isn't a diversity in body shape for example

[00:19:22] that's also something that we'll feedback to them

[00:19:24] and say I'm sorry we need more diversity in body shape

[00:19:26] that's not reflective of all women's bodies

[00:19:28] so

[00:19:30] yes we have very strong conversations with advertisers

[00:19:32] about that kind of thing

[00:19:34] Thank God for you

[00:19:36] it's what we need. I remember watching

[00:19:38] I don't know if you ever saw

[00:19:40] Advanced Style

[00:19:42] which was about women in the 70s, 80s

[00:19:44] and even 90s who were

[00:19:46] incredibly into fashion

[00:19:48] magazines trying to

[00:19:50] get them to represent older models

[00:19:52] and they were just being turned away

[00:19:54] left right and centre and I think things are definitely

[00:19:56] shifted not just in terms of age

[00:19:58] but in representation generally

[00:20:00] do you agree

[00:20:02] that's across the board

[00:20:04] do you still think there's a long way to go?

[00:20:06] Oh there's still a long way to go

[00:20:08] I mean even you know

[00:20:10] I think

[00:20:12] there's still an element of tokenism

[00:20:14] in some areas and I mean

[00:20:17] I think small steps are worth celebrating

[00:20:19] you know it takes brands

[00:20:21] it takes companies time to fully transform

[00:20:23] you can't expect people to necessarily

[00:20:25] change dramatically overnight

[00:20:27] but as long as people are showing

[00:20:29] a willingness and an awareness

[00:20:31] and want to have that authentic conversation

[00:20:33] then I think you should support them

[00:20:35] You

[00:20:37] obviously well

[00:20:39] you just find as a beauty first brand right

[00:20:41] How would you

[00:20:43] define women's

[00:20:45] relationship with the concept of beauty

[00:20:47] obviously as a general

[00:20:49] concept but also in terms of beauty product

[00:20:51] and how would you say

[00:20:53] that's changed from say when you were there

[00:20:55] at the launch

[00:20:57] I think that beauty is no longer just

[00:20:59] about lipstick it's about a woman's journey

[00:21:01] to how she ended up buying that lipstick

[00:21:03] so often

[00:21:05] you know if I think about my journey with beauty

[00:21:07] for example I'm very much influenced by

[00:21:09] my heritage you know my mums from Iran

[00:21:11] and the way

[00:21:13] Iranian women were very westernised in their beauty

[00:21:15] you know I've got curly hair

[00:21:17] I straighten it every single day

[00:21:19] because that's what I was taught with

[00:21:21] you know Western standards of beauty was very much

[00:21:23] what I was taught was the right thing to do

[00:21:25] and I think a lot of women are questioning

[00:21:27] why they feel the way they do

[00:21:29] about their beauty routine

[00:21:31] or the products that they buy

[00:21:33] we often talk about for example hair removal

[00:21:35] you know hair grows naturally on women

[00:21:37] it grows naturally on men but

[00:21:39] women feel that we're disgusting in some way

[00:21:41] if we show our natural hair growing on our legs

[00:21:43] or under our arms

[00:21:45] and I think those are things we just accepted

[00:21:47] blindly in the past work that we're really

[00:21:49] starting to question

[00:21:51] that internalised misogyny that a lot of us feel

[00:21:53] when it comes to conversations around beauty

[00:21:55] and one thing I change

[00:21:57] for example in the past glamour never used to cover

[00:21:59] treatments or plastic surgery

[00:22:01] and I understand absolutely why that was

[00:22:03] but the fact is women are having

[00:22:05] treatments and they are having plastic surgery

[00:22:07] and I think that

[00:22:09] it's our role at Glamour to ensure they're educated

[00:22:12] to make sure that they do it safely and well

[00:22:14] and that I don't want to judge them

[00:22:16] you know I want them to come again

[00:22:18] to feel that they're not being judged

[00:22:20] and whatever you decide to do whether it's

[00:22:22] wear makeup, don't wear makeup, have

[00:22:24] tweakments, don't have tweakments

[00:22:26] straighten your hair, leave it natural

[00:22:28] there's a safe space to help you do what you want

[00:22:30] to do well

[00:22:32] and I think without judgment

[00:22:34] is probably the main conversation around beauty for us

[00:22:36] do you think it's possible to do that

[00:22:38] and still talk about

[00:22:40] seeing things through the male gaze

[00:22:42] or because of internalised misogyny

[00:22:44] is it possible to tread that balance

[00:22:46] do you think

[00:22:48] and oh well do you think Glamour does that

[00:22:50] I think we do it really well

[00:22:52] I think the fact that we acknowledge

[00:22:54] our own internalised misogyny

[00:22:56] and question

[00:22:58] why we feel the way we do about things

[00:23:00] and

[00:23:02] just even just having that conversation

[00:23:04] I don't think it's been had that frequently in the past

[00:23:06] the fact that it's happening

[00:23:08] and our writers are questioning themselves

[00:23:10] and the society around us

[00:23:12] and the pressures we've always felt

[00:23:14] the ones that we still feel

[00:23:16] around beauty and ageing

[00:23:18] I think it's a conversation we have every day

[00:23:31] Ryan Reynolds here from It Mobile

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[00:23:35] during inflation

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[00:23:57] promulate for new customers for limited time

[00:23:59] unlimited more than 40 gigabytes per month

[00:24:01] full terms at mintmobile.com

[00:24:10] you mentioned earlier body image as well

[00:24:12] and I think that's a particularly

[00:24:14] well-loaded issue right you've got on the one hand

[00:24:16] diet culture which we know has been there

[00:24:18] for God knows how long

[00:24:20] then we've got body positivity

[00:24:22] now we're getting a push back against that

[00:24:24] body neutrality etc

[00:24:26] and I know you've spoken about dieting

[00:24:28] in the past and that kind of damaging messaging

[00:24:31] how would you summarize

[00:24:33] what's going on in that kind of body image

[00:24:35] landscape

[00:24:37] and how glamour is choosing to cover that

[00:24:39] and represent that

[00:24:41] well I think you know I wrote an article about it

[00:24:43] recently in the Daily Mail about my own experience

[00:24:45] a body image after having three children

[00:24:47] and I think for me

[00:24:49] America Ferrera summed it up

[00:24:51] in the Barbie movie you know when she says that

[00:24:53] you just can't win

[00:24:55] you know you're not allowed to diet

[00:24:57] but then you have to be thin but don't be too thin

[00:24:59] because then you'll be judged

[00:25:01] and I think there's like a very

[00:25:03] small slither of acceptability

[00:25:05] when it comes to what women are allowed

[00:25:07] to look like you're not allowed

[00:25:09] to be too thin because then you're too thin

[00:25:11] and that's not good

[00:25:13] and you want to be thin but you're not allowed to say

[00:25:15] that you want to diet and if you don't

[00:25:17] lose your baby weight then oh gosh

[00:25:19] that's terrible and if you're

[00:25:21] above your BMI then you're unhealthy

[00:25:23] and just the messaging

[00:25:25] is so negative

[00:25:27] towards women and

[00:25:29] it's very very difficult to love your body

[00:25:31] when you're surrounded by this kind of

[00:25:33] messaging pretty much from the day you're born

[00:25:35] and some of it comes from your mother

[00:25:37] some of it comes from your friends

[00:25:39] it comes from images I think

[00:25:41] magazines and media in general

[00:25:43] have had a big part to play in that in the past

[00:25:45] I've talked in the past

[00:25:47] you know early on when I was an editor

[00:25:49] you know a shoot came in

[00:25:51] and the model was so thin

[00:25:53] so painfully painfully thin that

[00:25:55] I asked the retouchers to make her arms up bigger

[00:25:57] because I didn't feel

[00:25:59] it was responsible to print a shoot

[00:26:01] with a girl that was so painfully thin

[00:26:03] I was worried she wasn't well

[00:26:05] and you know

[00:26:07] you just can't win as a woman

[00:26:09] so to some degree really

[00:26:11] you have to just do what you want to do

[00:26:13] and find a way to love yourself

[00:26:15] without taking on all the negative messaging

[00:26:17] but good god it's a lifelong journey

[00:26:19] isn't it I think every single woman

[00:26:21] has their own journey

[00:26:23] and it changes

[00:26:25] you know our view of our bodies changes through time

[00:26:27] you know certainly for me

[00:26:29] having children change my body

[00:26:31] unrecognisably

[00:26:33] and coming to terms with that

[00:26:35] it's a journey it's a journey right

[00:26:37] and you have to be thankful

[00:26:39] to be healthy really

[00:26:41] I was going to ask because I know

[00:26:43] like you said you've spoken about it

[00:26:45] or written about it for the Daily Mail

[00:26:47] and you've touched there on you know

[00:26:49] straightening your hair

[00:26:51] and how you felt about your body after children

[00:26:53] what else could you or would you be happy

[00:26:55] to share with us about your journey

[00:26:57] with body image

[00:26:59] and kind of where you're at now

[00:27:01] yeah I think when I was younger

[00:27:03] I was very naughty and I was naturally slim

[00:27:05] I was always naturally slim

[00:27:07] I played tennis I did a lot of sport

[00:27:09] and I think after I had children

[00:27:11] I had three children very quickly one after the other

[00:27:13] after the other I think had three under four

[00:27:15] at one point

[00:27:17] and I'd had years of IVF before that

[00:27:19] you know and I'd be put on steroids

[00:27:21] which really makes you really bloated

[00:27:23] and I came out of the situation

[00:27:25] you know looking at my body

[00:27:27] not really recognising what I saw in the mirror

[00:27:29] but equally I was so thankful

[00:27:31] to have been able to have children which wasn't a guarantee

[00:27:33] by any stretch of imagination

[00:27:35] that didn't really focus on my body

[00:27:37] and then when I took on the role of Glamour

[00:27:39] you know a couple of people have said to me

[00:27:41] oh I really admire the fact that you don't adhere

[00:27:44] to the size zero magazine adage

[00:27:46] Rostetic

[00:27:48] and I was like oh okay

[00:27:50] is that how you see me yet

[00:27:53] you know and it just really

[00:27:55] no one wants to hear that either do they

[00:27:57] well it was just interesting

[00:28:00] I hadn't necessarily thought of myself in any way

[00:28:02] in particular

[00:28:04] and I started thinking oh god

[00:28:06] I really need to you know maybe I need to lose weight

[00:28:08] maybe I need to be thinner to be a magazine editor

[00:28:10] so I started down this ridiculous journey

[00:28:12] of you know

[00:28:14] in the office someone was saying

[00:28:16] oh there's a zen pic and then there's natural zen pic

[00:28:18] and then there's this join one of these exercise groups

[00:28:20] where you have 1,300 calories a day

[00:28:22] and I just went down this crazy

[00:28:24] route and then stopped myself

[00:28:26] and thought what on earth am I doing

[00:28:28] all day on glamour we talk about the need to

[00:28:30] not be influenced by external messaging

[00:28:32] and I'm doing exactly the thing

[00:28:34] that I'm telling everybody else not to do on glamour

[00:28:36] so that's why I wrote the article

[00:28:38] I thought maybe it's time to stop and think

[00:28:40] and realise that maybe I'm doing all the things

[00:28:42] that I'm kind of a you know

[00:28:44] on glamour every day we advise readers not to do

[00:28:46] which is be you know be influenced

[00:28:48] by the judgement and society around you

[00:28:50] and your body and the way you feel about yourself

[00:28:52] and that's why I wrote the article

[00:28:54] and also you know I've got two young girls

[00:28:56] and I don't want them growing up

[00:28:58] with that negative messaging

[00:29:00] I don't want them seeing me struggling

[00:29:02] with the way I feel about my body

[00:29:04] and then feeling that they have to do the same

[00:29:06] so that's really kind of what triggered

[00:29:08] that conversation for me

[00:29:10] Do you think you experienced that messaging

[00:29:12] from family or whatever when you were growing up?

[00:29:15] I don't think particularly around weight

[00:29:18] but I certainly did in beauty

[00:29:20] you know I think Iranian women

[00:29:22] their value is their beauty in society

[00:29:25] you know it's an

[00:29:27] unequal society for women

[00:29:29] and their ability to marry a man

[00:29:32] to marry somebody who can look after them

[00:29:34] is key to their role

[00:29:36] in a society where a government as we all know

[00:29:38] treats women as second class citizens

[00:29:40] that's very much how my mum was brought up

[00:29:42] so I definitely had the messaging

[00:29:44] that you really have to

[00:29:46] always have a beautiful blow-dry

[00:29:48] and always make sure that your makeup is perfect

[00:29:50] and always make sure that you

[00:29:52] look as attractive as you possibly can

[00:29:54] but as I said I didn't really struggle

[00:29:56] weight wasn't my insecurity

[00:29:58] when I was younger

[00:30:00] Well that's something, I'm happy for you

[00:30:02] also do you talk about the size zero

[00:30:04] editor thing

[00:30:06] it's funny because I was watching

[00:30:08] By the way it's a nonsense also

[00:30:10] because I'm friendly with loads of other editors

[00:30:12] and there's very few now

[00:30:14] that adhere to that size zero aesthetic

[00:30:16] it's not really a thing

[00:30:18] maybe it was in the past but it certainly isn't in the present

[00:30:20] most of the other women's editors

[00:30:22] that I know and regularly meet

[00:30:24] for lunch and breakfast

[00:30:26] we all feel the same, a lot of us have got young children

[00:30:28] and they feel the same as I do

[00:30:30] That's a really important shift

[00:30:32] but yeah I was watching

[00:30:34] Devil Wears Prada at weekend

[00:30:36] how Andy's children

[00:30:38] because I think she's something like a

[00:30:40] I don't know, size 10

[00:30:42] and she is pride of herself

[00:30:44] for going down to a size 6

[00:30:46] it's like she's made it

[00:30:48] but what I was going to ask you about

[00:30:50] was, oh yeah from a beauty point of view

[00:30:53] do you think as the editor of Glamour

[00:30:56] or the editor-in-chief of Glamour should I say

[00:30:58] do you think that ever

[00:31:00] makes you feel under more pressure

[00:31:02] to look a certain way

[00:31:04] and I mean I've never ever seen

[00:31:06] you look anything but glamorous

[00:31:08] do you feel any pressure in terms of

[00:31:10] of that beauty

[00:31:12] representation

[00:31:14] I think there's a level of professionalism

[00:31:16] obviously if you're coming to work every day

[00:31:18] and you're walking to a voc-house of all work places

[00:31:21] then I really try hard

[00:31:24] not to be too influenced by what other people think of me

[00:31:26] like I do it for myself

[00:31:28] I like clothes, I like, you know I blame my own hair straight

[00:31:31] I don't really go to the hairdresser that often

[00:31:33] I don't go to the hairdresser for blow-dries

[00:31:35] and you know

[00:31:37] the reason I love coming to work is I like getting dressed

[00:31:39] putting my makeup on, putting on some high heels

[00:31:41] I go to work, I feel good

[00:31:43] you know at the weekend I'm usually in a tracksuit bottom

[00:31:45] taking my dogs for a walk and hanging out with my kids

[00:31:47] so I love the fact that I can come to work

[00:31:49] and have that kind of more glamorous persona

[00:31:51] I don't, do I feel the pressure?

[00:31:53] not really

[00:31:55] not really, you know

[00:31:57] I don't actually, I kind of pretty much do what I want

[00:31:59] wear what I want, you know

[00:32:01] say what I want

[00:32:03] I've always been like a new person

[00:32:05] such a hero

[00:32:07] I mean people like you

[00:32:09] you've obviously done some quite as well as generally covering

[00:32:11] empowerment

[00:32:13] and feminism and some really, really

[00:32:15] key societal issues

[00:32:17] you've obviously also done

[00:32:19] some really impactful projects

[00:32:21] on glamour like special projects

[00:32:23] such as the self-love

[00:32:25] you do the self-love issue, don't you

[00:32:27] every year and you recently did

[00:32:29] the Transparentho cover

[00:32:31] which had quite a few articles, didn't it

[00:32:33] about trans and non-binary experiences

[00:32:35] could you tell us a little bit more

[00:32:37] about those projects and any others that you feel

[00:32:39] were kind of

[00:32:41] game changers

[00:32:43] well, they're probably the covers I'm most proud of every year

[00:32:46] so every January or February

[00:32:48] we've done a self-love cover for the past few years

[00:32:50] and every year we look

[00:32:52] at people from modernised communities

[00:32:54] that maybe aren't often represented

[00:32:56] in society and aren't seen on magazine covers

[00:32:59] and we talk about how can we

[00:33:02] make those women be seen

[00:33:04] and I was actually talking about this yesterday

[00:33:06] I think one of the most incredible moments of my whole

[00:33:08] life and career

[00:33:10] was when we had Ellie Goldstein on the cover

[00:33:12] about three years ago

[00:33:14] and I think she was the first

[00:33:16] woman with Down syndrome to have ever been

[00:33:18] given a magazine cover

[00:33:20] and I got a letter from a woman

[00:33:22] who I've never met, I don't know who she is

[00:33:24] she just contacted me on Instagram and said

[00:33:26] I just want you to know that

[00:33:28] I've got a baby who's got Down syndrome

[00:33:30] and I've printed out your magazine cover

[00:33:32] and it's on her wall

[00:33:34] I'm going to keep it on her wall so that she knows

[00:33:36] that when she grows up she can be whatever

[00:33:38] she wants to be and for me

[00:33:41] that made coming to work every single day

[00:33:43] worth it because if you can

[00:33:45] give women power in that way

[00:33:47] through representation

[00:33:49] and change their future lives then

[00:33:51] wow it was a good feeling

[00:33:53] that was a great feeling for me

[00:33:55] more recently we did the Logan Brown cover

[00:33:57] which was the first

[00:33:59] women's magazine cover that had a pregnant

[00:34:01] trans man on the cover

[00:34:03] it was for Pride Month, we discussed it as a team

[00:34:05] what did we want to do, how did we want to show

[00:34:07] our life ship for the trans community

[00:34:09] and we just feel you know sometimes

[00:34:11] there is division between the feminist community

[00:34:13] and the trans community and we wanted to show

[00:34:15] the unity that you know

[00:34:17] trans men and women

[00:34:19] have around childbirth

[00:34:21] and it was an incredible cover

[00:34:23] and we had so much

[00:34:25] amazing positive response

[00:34:27] we had some negative response as well

[00:34:29] which I was expecting but again

[00:34:31] I think if we can open the mind

[00:34:33] of even one person then

[00:34:35] it's worth it right, if we can change

[00:34:37] the lives of people then it's worth it

[00:34:39] in a positive way so

[00:34:41] for me that was incredibly powerful

[00:34:43] and it went all around the world

[00:34:45] I mean we had letters from people from

[00:34:47] as far as Canada, Australia and Iran

[00:34:49] so it really went around the world

[00:34:51] which was incredible

[00:34:53] I'm very very proud of that

[00:34:55] and so are the team

[00:34:57] quite right and well like you said

[00:34:59] at the beginning you can't always

[00:35:01] change things overnight

[00:35:03] in terms of it's incremental

[00:35:05] but having something so powerful

[00:35:07] get such a response

[00:35:09] that's got to have had an impact

[00:35:11] so yeah quite right to be proud

[00:35:13] Tuti, you know what

[00:35:15] we've got a platform at Glamour

[00:35:17] of 9 million people

[00:35:19] across social media and web

[00:35:21] and I think that's a really powerful

[00:35:23] position to be in to have that platform

[00:35:25] and why wouldn't we do something good with it

[00:35:27] why wouldn't we use it

[00:35:29] to open people's mind

[00:35:31] to open their hearts, sorry

[00:35:33] maybe change their minds if we can

[00:35:35] and maybe just make them

[00:35:37] question the way they've always thought

[00:35:39] about something or show them a different

[00:35:41] life perspective

[00:35:43] I think sometimes the downside

[00:35:45] of social media is that sometimes people

[00:35:47] live in an echo chamber

[00:35:49] and I think as a journalist

[00:35:51] it's my job to

[00:35:53] challenge status quo and challenge

[00:35:55] the way that people think

[00:35:57] and that's probably the thing

[00:35:59] at Glamour every day we have a meeting

[00:36:01] and these conversations come up every morning

[00:36:03] and we debate

[00:36:05] and we question and challenge

[00:36:07] and try and find new perspectives on things

[00:36:09] Sounds an incredible place to be

[00:36:11] I'm not surprised you look going into the office Deborah

[00:36:13] heels aside

[00:36:15] I do, I love it

[00:36:17] I love it, I'm surrounded by really brilliant people

[00:36:19] You've talked there about your 9 million

[00:36:21] strong

[00:36:23] because it's practically an army isn't it

[00:36:25] obviously to run a magazine brand

[00:36:27] as anyone in publishing knows

[00:36:29] audience is really key to

[00:36:31] your success right

[00:36:33] What can you tell us about your audience

[00:36:35] other than what you've mentioned already

[00:36:37] or your readership

[00:36:39] and how you build a relationship

[00:36:41] with them, find out what they're

[00:36:43] looking for from your brand

[00:36:45] So we've predominantly got a Gen Z

[00:36:47] millennial audience

[00:36:49] so probably around say

[00:36:51] 18 to 40

[00:36:53] and each platform has a different

[00:36:55] audience so for example

[00:36:57] TikToks are younger audience

[00:36:59] Facebook's an older audience

[00:37:01] our websites kind of in the middle

[00:37:03] so you know we quite often look at each platform

[00:37:05] and know that we're speaking to

[00:37:07] maybe a slightly different age group

[00:37:09] with slightly different demographic

[00:37:11] and the way we speak to them

[00:37:13] is we do surveys

[00:37:15] we hold events

[00:37:17] so we have in the past we've held

[00:37:19] big beauty events

[00:37:21] we're doing something called an empowerment summit

[00:37:23] and we speak to them

[00:37:25] they speak to us a lot on social media

[00:37:27] social media is very much a two way conversation

[00:37:29] so it's an instant response

[00:37:31] to things that we do

[00:37:33] so we know instantly how our audience feel

[00:37:35] about what we're producing on Twitter

[00:37:37] or on Instagram

[00:37:39] so I think that in the past

[00:37:41] when you created a print magazine

[00:37:43] you'd create it

[00:37:45] and then it would take three months

[00:37:47] to produce it

[00:37:49] and then once it went live

[00:37:51] and then by the time you printed those letters

[00:37:53] you're talking like a six to nine month period

[00:37:55] before you can really communicate with your audience

[00:37:58] whereas the reason I love digital so much

[00:38:00] is it's an instant communication

[00:38:02] it's like having a daily conversation

[00:38:04] with people minute by minute

[00:38:06] and that's a really powerful place to be

[00:38:09] you mentioned the empowerment summit

[00:38:11] are there any of the projects

[00:38:13] that you've got coming up

[00:38:15] that you're excited about that you're allowed

[00:38:17] to tell us about

[00:38:19] the big glamour women of the year coming up in October

[00:38:22] which is probably our biggest

[00:38:24] it's our most public event of the year

[00:38:26] since I've become editor

[00:38:28] it's the second time we've done it

[00:38:30] we did it last November for the first time

[00:38:32] and for me it's just really a way for us to bring to life

[00:38:35] all the conversations around female empowerment

[00:38:37] that we have every day on the website

[00:38:39] and on social media

[00:38:41] so to be able to bring so many powerful women

[00:38:43] into a room

[00:38:45] and to honour so many incredible women

[00:38:47] and to be able to bring so many of the icing on the cake really

[00:38:49] and I noticed that you've partnered

[00:38:51] with Refuge

[00:38:53] and Rape Crisis

[00:38:55] on the consent campaign

[00:38:57] can you tell us a little bit about that

[00:38:59] and what drove that, why it's needed

[00:39:01] what you hope to get from it

[00:39:03] what response you've had so far

[00:39:05] so we've not gone live with the responses yet

[00:39:07] but we've had over 3000

[00:39:09] people have responded to the survey

[00:39:11] which was bigger than we could ever have imagined

[00:39:13] when we first said we want to do this

[00:39:15] and we've been recognised from the marketing department

[00:39:17] that actually it's such an in-depth survey

[00:39:19] and we're asking people to be so honest

[00:39:21] about their experiences around consent

[00:39:23] and some of that is really hard

[00:39:25] to call about

[00:39:27] fundamentally rape

[00:39:29] and did we feel that people were going to be that open

[00:39:31] and honest with us

[00:39:33] and they have been because they know

[00:39:35] that it's a conversation we have every day

[00:39:37] that we are on their side

[00:39:39] that we want to speak on their behalf

[00:39:41] in a positive way

[00:39:44] and that's a really good response

[00:39:46] I think consent

[00:39:48] is at the heart of so many conversations

[00:39:50] that we have every single day

[00:39:52] and people don't even know

[00:39:54] the full meaning of the word

[00:39:56] so that's where it started

[00:39:58] and it's a long term

[00:40:00] project that we want to be working on

[00:40:02] and it's going to take many different guises

[00:40:04] but it starts with the survey

[00:40:06] that's an amazing response

[00:40:08] yeah it shows that you were saying

[00:40:10] that your audience, your readers trust you

[00:40:12] but yeah, I mean it's incredible

[00:40:14] that people have been brave enough

[00:40:16] to open up to tell us what's going on in their lives

[00:40:19] but I think consent is

[00:40:21] or lack of consent is something that's affected

[00:40:23] probably almost every single woman

[00:40:25] that I know in some form or another

[00:40:27] whether it's someone touching

[00:40:29] putting the hand on the bottom in a bar

[00:40:31] to more extreme scenarios

[00:40:33] I don't think there's a woman really

[00:40:35] that hasn't had an experience

[00:40:37] and a problem with people not understanding consent

[00:40:39] and I think we don't just want to talk to women

[00:40:41] we want to be talking to men as well

[00:40:43] because I feel very strongly that

[00:40:45] this journey, this feminist journey

[00:40:47] that we're all on for full equality

[00:40:49] you can't do that on your own

[00:40:51] you have to do it in partnership with men

[00:40:53] and

[00:40:55] that's something again that

[00:40:57] I hope to be working on more in the future

[00:40:59] no absolutely there's no point

[00:41:01] helping women articulate

[00:41:03] how they feel and learn what the rights are

[00:41:05] around something like consent

[00:41:07] without talking to or involving

[00:41:09] the people who are often involved

[00:41:12] in overstepping that consent

[00:41:14] or ignoring that consent

[00:41:16] absolutely agree

[00:41:18] just to wrap up

[00:41:20] I'd love to know maybe one of your

[00:41:22] personal heroes

[00:41:24] anybody in the feminist space

[00:41:26] or magazine space that you think

[00:41:28] is really nailing it

[00:41:30] that people listening should go and follow

[00:41:32] immediately

[00:41:34] do you know what I think for me it's everyday women

[00:41:36] every single day

[00:41:38] I meet new women

[00:41:40] I'm so amazed

[00:41:42] as I said because we're all so much more open

[00:41:44] than we used to be

[00:41:46] I'm so amazed by the things that people tell me these days

[00:41:48] and no one would have ever told me in the past

[00:41:50] and

[00:41:52] I think I'm probably influenced by

[00:41:54] pretty much

[00:41:56] I try and get the story out of almost every woman I meet now

[00:41:58] I want to understand their experiences

[00:42:00] their life experiences

[00:42:02] and I think that

[00:42:04] I can't think of one person in particular

[00:42:06] there are so many women that make me

[00:42:08] there's so many women that have shaped me personally

[00:42:10] from very early on in my career

[00:42:12] I was very very lucky

[00:42:14] I've had amazing female bosses

[00:42:16] female influences

[00:42:18] and for the first time now at Condé Nast

[00:42:20] I've got two female bosses

[00:42:22] I've got Anna Winter

[00:42:24] and I've got a lady called Natalia

[00:42:26] who heads up Europe

[00:42:28] it's the first time in my whole career

[00:42:30] I've only had female bosses

[00:42:32] and for me

[00:42:34] it's a game changing because

[00:42:36] to have people who

[00:42:38] they've both got children

[00:42:40] they understand, they're supportive

[00:42:42] that's just a whole new world for me

[00:42:44] I get it, it shows the importance of that kind of representation

[00:42:46] at top levels

[00:42:48] I don't think I could have imagined

[00:42:50] at this time that so many women would have been

[00:42:52] at the top of the publishing industry

[00:42:54] that's a huge shift

[00:42:56] huge huge shift

[00:42:58] because when I first started out in magazines

[00:43:00] everybody was women

[00:43:02] I was a little bit shocked from the bosses

[00:43:04] the decision makers at the top were men

[00:43:06] and everybody else who was living the daily life

[00:43:08] of publishing were women

[00:43:10] whereas now it's actually women at the top

[00:43:12] and I do massively feel that shift

[00:43:14] massively feel that shift

[00:43:16] I still think it is like that in a lot of places

[00:43:18] but you say it's really heartening

[00:43:20] that it started to shift

[00:43:22] I love that you said everyday women

[00:43:24] because that's how we're going to get changed

[00:43:26] isn't it, everyday women

[00:43:28] the collective empowerment

[00:43:30] collective change

[00:43:32] I think so

[00:43:34] and obviously you know I'm from Manchester

[00:43:36] as you are and well I know you're from Lancashire

[00:43:38] and I think sometimes I go back up north

[00:43:40] and I meet my friends there

[00:43:42] some old school friends

[00:43:44] and their lives

[00:43:46] the things that they're experiencing everyday

[00:43:48] are quite different sometimes

[00:43:50] the things that we have in London

[00:43:52] I think London's in some instances

[00:43:54] more open minded

[00:43:56] the conversation around plastic surgery for example

[00:43:58] my friends and I will be very very open

[00:44:00] about tweakments

[00:44:02] we'll share with each other

[00:44:04] we'll recommend doctors

[00:44:06] we'll recommend dermatologists

[00:44:08] whereas my friend up north

[00:44:10] said there's so much secrecy around it

[00:44:12] and no one wants to talk about it

[00:44:14] and I said you have to talk about it

[00:44:16] because otherwise you allow

[00:44:18] cowboy doctors to rise to the surface

[00:44:20] because no one's exposing them

[00:44:22] so if you don't talk about it

[00:44:24] that's what's going to happen

[00:44:26] I have conversations I have with different women

[00:44:28] from different places that really open my mind

[00:44:30] to what's going on in women's lives

[00:44:32] lovely

[00:44:34] ok well thanks so much Deborah

[00:44:36] for being here, thanks so much for talking to us

[00:44:38] it was a real treat for me

[00:44:40] and I know the listeners are going to really appreciate it as well

[00:44:42] thanks for your incisive comments

[00:44:45] thank you it was a joy

[00:44:47] thank you so much

[00:44:49] what a great start to the day

[00:44:55] thanks for listening

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